Oops! Just started an accidental neighbour dispute

[tinytoessize4]

Any legal eagles reading? Advice please...

We have a shared passageway only with next door, enclosed at either end, and locked at our end (we did not put the lock on and have evidence to prove this). We thought we owned it outright, but this is not the case as it is a restrictive covenant in the deeds. Anyway, we propsed to move our kitchen downstairs into the passageway area, knockig down our internal wall to create an open room. Yes, we know the planning permission necessary and checked this out. Out of courtesy we informed our neighbour of our pending planning permission application. We have a small son and one bedroom. We only have 2k to do the alterations. I'll continue...we informed her of this, and that she had never utilised the right of access since we had been there and never since the previous owner of our house had been there either. She got a wee bit shirty. Saying that we admitted blocking our passage by placing a lock on the door (!) to which she didn't have a key (why? because she never bothered to get one when whoever put the lock on did it.) and that this was actionable nuisance. grr. she said she wanted monetary compensation for this. We said we didn't have any money. But we do have a shared right of access across the back of her property. We offered to exchange this. She hasn't yet responded. We said it would be best if we met face to face (terrible but we haven't met her and we've been here 2yrs! We were talking by letter). She's a litigation lawyer and though I am a law student, still have a year left. She quoted James v Stevenson [1893] AC 291 at me but I couldn't find it on Westlaw. Where do we stand with regard to the fact the right of access hasn't been exercised by her for about 10yrs? is there any precedent of lapsed right of access? Sorry its long ladies & gents....

tinytoes

You appear from the facts you have given to have unreasonable expectations.
Try to forget for a moment what want or think you deserve.
And then think about what you can reasonable expect to achieve from this situation which at best is legally confusing. Your adversary in this is someone who from what you have said sounds knowledgeable about her rights, and someone that you have already annoyed.
And you only have £2K to pay for all of this?

mutt - fgs please read the info more carefully!! the LAND (incl. the passageway) is OURS by right of the LAND REGISTRY and the TITLE DEED. the right of way is a BENEFICIAL RIGHT for the other party.

as for the 2k why is that hard to believe? don't people cost things out? or do they hire gold encrusted builders from london to do the work and 'project manage' from the standpoint of hiring architects and interior designers? even B&Q and MFI rip you off - try local firms and make connections.

ps, wouldn't you rather have a tenacious solicitor who (as well as seeing the other persons point of view - though im sure you all think that i don't: though i haven't actually said much on the matter) fights your corner, looks into all the possibilities, all the case law and legislation and then decides whether is a worthy battle? rather than one who skims the info and makes a snap decision without much consideration?

tigger - thanks for the post, in terms of achieving anything im still trying to work that out. we will achieve a solution to this - and we will get that extra space.

so much for her being knowledgeable about her property and rights though - she quoted the wrong sections of the party wall etc act and misunderstood (though admittedly i did too) that it was a restrictive covenant, she also stated that the right of way began in a conveyance dated 1991 when we know that it goes back slightly further (1980) so she hasn't really looked into it much for all her solicitor knowledge.

so you own the passageway and want to extend into it ..

and you are going to be taking down a supporting wall, putting a rsj up and replastering, re-wiring, potentially replumbing, decorating and tiling and fitting a kitchen for 2K? wow .. that's impressive

yes twig, thats right.

its not a supporting wall but theres a rather nice beam we want to keep..

the re-wiring/re-plumbing won't be too bad as the kitchen is directly above the passaegway so the pipes just need running down nothing too major. the replastering isn't that big a job and fitting the units we already have ain't that big a deal either. as for decorating, do people really find it that difficult to do? (and im not being sarcastic i just genuinely find it hard to believe that people find repainting/wallpapering difficult)

it might be possible. the only arguing that ive done to the point of blue in the face has been done on here..haven't brought it up with her for a couple of days just waiting to see if she does anything about it.

Yes Twig - she is going to do all of that for 2K, it is all of us who are idiots for not being able to do the same .

Just out of interest, has anybody ever watched any of Sarah Beeny's House Ladder programmes and wondered why the works always come in massively over-budget?

Tinytoes - just to put an end of all this nonsense that you can't do this work for 2K would you mind telling me again how much you have allowed for the building regulations application, (don't remember you answering that before), the party wall agreement, qualified electrician, removal of waste, special heritage windows etc. Or is this all included in the £1200 the builder has quoted you, (this is a fixed price you have signed I assume).

Look, even if you can prove the land is yours, and even if you can find a way round her beneficial right of access, and even if you can get the work done for an amazingly reasonable sum, HOW WILL YOU STOP HER FROM OBJECTING TO THE PLANS? With the best will in the world, she's not going to want a party wall, and she's more likely to object on principle now you've hacked her off.

helenn - i never said that any of you were idiots for not being able to do the same.

and i used to watch property ladder too.

right, if you want a breakdown - it is costing:
£150 for pp & listed building consent
£100 for building regs
£200 (down from 250) for surveyor
£1200 for builders (who happens to be multiskilled - qualified electrician and plumber and builder (and don't be so surpirsed at that either they do exist and are really useful (incl. labour, rsj and materials (as most materials will be reused))
£300 for sash window and new back door.

we've already got plaster and paint from when we redecorated so we're going to use this again.

as for party wall agreement, this doesn't have to drawn up by a solicitor just by the interested parties and lodged with the council planning.

clam - there is a clause in the party wall etc act that allows for the builder to build a party wall adjacent to but not on the original party wall if there is a dispute arising, thus meaning that even if she does object, she cannot stop the works entirely.

if this occurs, hubby will sell his other motorbike (we have a car as well) to cover the costs.

any comments about owning a bike AND a car? well, the bike he had since uni which he got from an inheritance windfall - it is cheaper to run on good days so makes sense economically as a runabout to work. when it rains he takes the car. which, at the mo, is quite a lot.

I've just read this for the first time, open mouthed!

I feel for your neighbour tinytoes. I'm not a lawyer. However I do spend much of my time advising on the law, in a particular subject area.

The most important piece of advice I ever give anyone is to work out what end result they want, then think about what's the best (easiest/least risky/least expensive, delete as appropriate) way of achieving that result. Then I discuss with them the law as it might be relevant to that, any obstacles or opportunities it might present.

I think you would do well to try and think along those lines. The best way of achieving what you want was clearly not what you have done/are doing imo, regardless of the technicalities of the law.

You are absolutely barking tinytoessize4.

Your neighbour is not looking for a bit of extra cash to line her pocket. She is looking to protect her investment in her house,and her privacy and peace and quiet.

You really think your neighbour will not want to have solicitors involved to draw up a party wall agreement.

We have renovated 3 houses now with my husband doing all the work himself,building, plastering, wiring, the lot so I know what I'm talking about. There is no way you'll manage to get all the work you want done for £2k.

But if you have to build a wall adjacent to the original, presumably with insulation, how much of that 3 feet is going to be left to make any tangible difference? Would it still be worth it?

And to be fair to other posters, the only one who has made observations about ownership of vehicles/money is you! Earlier on you seemed to think that she should let you do this because she had 3 bedrooms to your one, and she drove a flashy car!

I'm not being picky, or doubtful .. but I'm trying to help

if £1,200 includes RSJ that is amazing, particularly based on the price of steel recently .. an RSJ is used to replace a supporting / load-bearing wall... I was under the strong impression that you would need to pay a structural engineer to calculate the RSJ requirements too

She said it wasnt a supporting wall. This house sounds very unusual, I must say. Can't really picture what she's been describing. Have never heard of an external wall, even if it's to a covered passage, not being load-bearing. But then, I'm no expert.

I know she said it's not supporting but builders have quoted for RSJ .. and most people don't understand the building trade until they've been through it which is why budgets get screwed .. it is best to look at everything with a fine tooth comb

Twiglett, are you the Beanie?

She wouldn't listen even if you were...

You see, even though it's your land, tiny, is it REALLY worth the bucket-load of hassle and angst this is going to cause?
We have wondered about extending our bedroom out at the back across the single-storey extension to the sitting room below. However, we didn't even bother pursuing it once we realised it might block some light to next door's bedroom if we did. We might not have been allowed to on plaaning grounds either, mind you.
And we're currently re-landscaping the garden, but have consulted the neighbours on all sides to keep them on side. They can't stop us doing what we want, but that's not the point. It's always good to be on friendly terms with your neighbours, however much/little you see them.

OMG...i do, id really do give up. this thread and leached beyond control and turned into some monster.

so last post EVER (at least on this thread) from the originator coming (better make it count)

clam - 3 feet is enough space to put a galley kitchen on. your right i was the only other poster that made reference to the vehicle/home thing - but was commented on by other posters if you refer back in the thread.

twig - i know you were trying to be helpful so i replied; the rsj is just to hold the interesting beam up and doesn't need any structural survey done on it.

she can have solicitors draw it [the party wall agreement] up if she wants to pay for it, otherwise it will be drawn up between us both and signed. Before anyone starts saying 'why should she pay for it?' why shouldn't she? anyway, as i stated earlier there is a way round it.

thanks flowerbeanbag - but please don't think that what i have said on here is what i have said to her. i have only spoken through letter with her 3 times. once to inform her, once to refute her reply and once to make amends and invite her for tea.

On a tenuously connected note - it is amazing, amazing to witness otherwise intelligent people open there mouths and spout off on a matter that they know very little or nothing about, not only that but that they have no inclination to actually research and inform themselves better (i know at times i do that too - pot/kettle/black) it must be the whole train-crash witness thing: y'know, on a motorway, or a road, you can't help but drive a little bit slower just in cause you either see the wreckage or view any bodies. i don't see many people stopping to help.

For example: the other day, there was a unusual occurance of a knife fight in the street, a woman was screaming for help and begging not to be killed - i opened the door and saw the fight, i rang on my mobile for the police and told them to send an ambulance as well as there was a person down, ?possibly injured. i expected others to have called it in too. but no. a street full of lights in windows and not a soul offering help - the bloke ran off and i went to stay with the person until the police & ambulance came. she did need some help and I tried as best i could to give it to her. The local paper said later she died (well there was a bit of blood about). but thats my point: its human curiosity to watch, possibly put your twopenceworth in, but when asked anything searching about the base of the opinion back away quietly.

no wonder the world (god i sound like a daily mail reader) is going to wrack and ruin in a handcart.

don't get me started on youth crime, feminism and capitalism (and im only in my twenties)...

OK. It's your life.

The fact that no-one here has agreed with your points is nothing at all do do with diffusion of responsibility.

I'm surprised that you seem to place your own dispute in the same catergory as someone being stabbed on the street.

The fact that your first communication was to inform her that you proposed to build on this passage proves my point entirely.

Blimey.

Enjoy your tea .. I hope she accepts

Hope building comes in on budget too

good luck