Oops! Just started an accidental neighbour dispute

[tinytoessize4]

Any legal eagles reading? Advice please...

We have a shared passageway only with next door, enclosed at either end, and locked at our end (we did not put the lock on and have evidence to prove this). We thought we owned it outright, but this is not the case as it is a restrictive covenant in the deeds. Anyway, we propsed to move our kitchen downstairs into the passageway area, knockig down our internal wall to create an open room. Yes, we know the planning permission necessary and checked this out. Out of courtesy we informed our neighbour of our pending planning permission application. We have a small son and one bedroom. We only have 2k to do the alterations. I'll continue...we informed her of this, and that she had never utilised the right of access since we had been there and never since the previous owner of our house had been there either. She got a wee bit shirty. Saying that we admitted blocking our passage by placing a lock on the door (!) to which she didn't have a key (why? because she never bothered to get one when whoever put the lock on did it.) and that this was actionable nuisance. grr. she said she wanted monetary compensation for this. We said we didn't have any money. But we do have a shared right of access across the back of her property. We offered to exchange this. She hasn't yet responded. We said it would be best if we met face to face (terrible but we haven't met her and we've been here 2yrs! We were talking by letter). She's a litigation lawyer and though I am a law student, still have a year left. She quoted James v Stevenson [1893] AC 291 at me but I couldn't find it on Westlaw. Where do we stand with regard to the fact the right of access hasn't been exercised by her for about 10yrs? is there any precedent of lapsed right of access? Sorry its long ladies & gents....

intolerant - the trade off is bound to be better for her re-sale value: who'd want someone traipsing through your back garden when you could all by yourself. and i doubt it would be a clincher to say to someone: you can also go through that passage there - yeah, that one inside someones house boundary and has storage in it.

aha, freckle, there the thing thats at issue - if she doesn't use it then the easement can lapse. hence all the headbanging and gnawing of teeth.

god almighty tiny toes [and this is going to be the last time I'm going to post because I'm gobsmacked at how dense you're being] do you not get it, really? Please stop and think about it from her perspective. It is irrelevant what you think is in her best interests.

I really am beginning to pity you because I think you have no, NO social awareness at all.

So, the passageway does actually belong to you? And when you bought the property you were aware of the burden of access with your neighbour?

I really think that the only thing you can do is to ask your neighbour nicely to waive this right that she has? Otherwise it could drag on for ever and will only end up with everyone getting uspet.

As I said earlier, proving abandonment of an easement is incredibly hard and you may have to wait as long as 40 years to do so. In these circumstances, the easement lapsing isn't such a problem for her.

Certainly doing a trade-off with the right of passage over her back garden/yard seems to be the best solution. I think that her legal stance is done to place her in the more powerful position when it comes to negotiation. After all, she's put up with your property have this right for all these years, so it's clearly not a pressing issue for her, whereas her right over your passageway is an issue for you.

She can't use it because you refuse to give her a key.

And I think that the reason this thread is still going on is because, as Wilf said, you don't seem to be getting what the problem is here. You see it as the neighbour being arsey and obstructive about your perfectly reasonable wish to extend your home. We see it as you going at it like a bull in a china shop and handling it rather badly. You might have had a better chance of getting what you want had you approached her more tactfully.

Oh, and the fact that lots of us were under the impression she shared ownership of the passageway. So of course we thought it unreasonable.

She didn't know the door had a lock on it and you didn't know she didn't already have a key. So, the obvious thing to do is for you to give her a key. Get one cut and give it to her. Simple. If you do that, she may be more likely to be amenable to negotiating with you.

And it's not just a question of her giving up her right over this passage. If she does this and you extend your property into the passageway, she is losing a space between her property and yours, with all the sound implications that might have.

And doesn't it turn it into a semi-detached house? Although, by the sounds of it, it's quite an unusual building and that term probably doesn't cover it.

If your friend's fiance is a property solicitor why on earth are you not talking to him and getting a qualified, legal opinion? This is MUMSNet and asking a question like this and expecting only chapter and verse responses from lawyers is optimistic. On the other hand, what you have had are many responses representative of what your neighbour is probably feeling which may give you a better insight into why she is upset?

Oh thank you everyone. Its been a dull day here in NZ. Children are back at school here and I hope they learn basic lesson No 1 : speak nicely and be nice to someone and they might do the same to you.........Mr Catper33

yep, adding an update for those who have nothing better to do [groan from audience]

popped a nice letter through her letterbox basically saying 'sorry i came across abrasive - how about tea and biscuits tomorrow evening?'

well, like the yorkshire terrier that i am i got all the deeds out. how dense are we both? we both thought it was a restrictive covenant. but it isn't. it was a casual agreement drawn up in 1981 referring to the occupiers at that time. odd and complicated. so, i rang 118 to find the number of the company who owned it at tat time - and they are still operating!!! so...spoke to the chairman/director who was then just a man in the office - he said there was no official right way, it was just between the neighbours at that time and wasn't on their conveyance. well, now, am even more confused than usual (and amazed that the company is still going).

Oh God. What a mess! What about the solicitor who did your conveyancing when you moved in? Would they know?
By the way, if you extend, will that make you actually adjoining to her wall? If so, does that mean you would have to drill into/remove bits of her brickwork to make the front wall flush? And insulate/plaster/drill screws to hold up the kitchen unitsdirectly onto what is currently the outer wall of her house? If so, wouldn't that create a further problem......

thanks for the update tinytoes, I needed an excuse to put off the washing up for a few more precious minutes..

Who thinks this thread should go on Mumsnet Classics?

grrr...yet more nuisance. she has sent another three page message. so i don't think she's coming round for a cuppa tonight.

Thank God you are not my neighbour!!!!

As you said earlier "tbh - where do some people get there (sic)ideas from?". I think you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you don't understand why your neighbour is feeling very defensive about all this.

What did the 3-page message say though (roughly)? Half a story........

it said 'should you wish to pursue this through a land tribunal - go ahead. if you continue to harass me further with letters i shall pursue this matter also. i do not wish to discuss this with you except through a relevent authority of my choosing.'

honestly, my letter wasn't that bad - it really did say can we make amends throug a cuppa and biscuits!!

Oh dear! She sounds well-hacked-off. Not sure what you can do about this one.....

Sounds like she's been taking advice from work.....

So your question now is whether or not there is an official right of way? Wouldn't you need to get a land search done? Or can you local authority help?

well, it isn't just the fact that there might not be an official right of way but also there are no purchase deed/ transfer deed any documentation to state that the land behind our property (her access) and our two parking bays (which we always thought were hers) was ever given over to her property. so it might be that she doesn't have a right to compensation as she has been trespassing all this time but we'll just see how it goes...she's painted the front of her house and the back WITHOUT PLANNING PERMISSION!!! don't think i'll tell the council yet. maybe when she kicks up a fuss over ours! ps you do not planning permission to repaint listed properties. silly but true.

Get a copy of the title deeds from the Land registry. You can get hers as well.

It's easy to do and doesn't cost much (at least it's easy in Scotland - and only £7 for the deeds)