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Original poster

Oops! Just started an accidental neighbour dispute

494 replies

tinytoessize4 · 29/08/2008 23:03

Any legal eagles reading? Advice please...

We have a shared passageway only with next door, enclosed at either end, and locked at our end (we did not put the lock on and have evidence to prove this). We thought we owned it outright, but this is not the case as it is a restrictive covenant in the deeds. Anyway, we propsed to move our kitchen downstairs into the passageway area, knockig down our internal wall to create an open room. Yes, we know the planning permission necessary and checked this out. Out of courtesy we informed our neighbour of our pending planning permission application. We have a small son and one bedroom. We only have 2k to do the alterations. I'll continue...we informed her of this, and that she had never utilised the right of access since we had been there and never since the previous owner of our house had been there either. She got a wee bit shirty. Saying that we admitted blocking our passage by placing a lock on the door (!) to which she didn't have a key (why? because she never bothered to get one when whoever put the lock on did it.) and that this was actionable nuisance. grr. she said she wanted monetary compensation for this. We said we didn't have any money. But we do have a shared right of access across the back of her property. We offered to exchange this. She hasn't yet responded. We said it would be best if we met face to face (terrible but we haven't met her and we've been here 2yrs! We were talking by letter). She's a litigation lawyer and though I am a law student, still have a year left. She quoted James v Stevenson [1893] AC 291 at me but I couldn't find it on Westlaw. Where do we stand with regard to the fact the right of access hasn't been exercised by her for about 10yrs? is there any precedent of lapsed right of access? Sorry its long ladies & gents....

OP posts:
FiveGoMadInDorset · 31/08/2008 20:09

Sorry will admit to talking out my arse conservatories are the only thing you don't need planning permission on. As we are going through this process at the moment it has been extremely helpful chatting to the conservation ofice on our local council who basically has the final say on whether we can convert a listed building that we have, it may be worth having a talk with yours just to get some initial feedback and good luck.

WilfSell · 31/08/2008 20:16

You weren't very clear though tinytoes. You implied that she was joint owner of the land and that she hadn't assented to swap RoW.

And you are still sidestepping the issue of her right to have access. Suppose she went to the police or her lawyer about it: they'd just serve you with notice to open it and agree to provide her with a key or let her get a locksmith in, surely?

But yes, now (finally ) it does sound like you have a case.

Blimey: don't be a silk will you - it'll take you ages to sum up and by that time you'll have been sent down yerself by the mag for faffing about

intolerant · 31/08/2008 20:22

I suppose if I were her, then closing off the access across the back of her house (that you currently enjoy), would be more valuable (when selling the property on) than potential access down a side passage that doesn't appear to be a great deal of use (in that noone's seen fit to use it for many years). You might have a case, actually, provided you can retreat from the adversarial position you seem to be in at the moment.

nervousal · 31/08/2008 20:27

how on earth can someone have a right of access through your actual house??? that makes no sense.

Flibbertyjibbet · 31/08/2008 20:33

Of course you will have to pay any legal fees that she incurs from the exchange of rights of way or of formalising any non-use of the access on her part.
She is hardly likely to say 'oh you want to do that? Well I'll just get my cheque book out'.
And it would be MADNESS on her part not to get any change of access done formally via the land registry.
I did a law degree also, and cringe at the way I used to bang on about legalities and spout case law.
No land law lecturer will give you any answers; their answer will be 'you need to consult a solicitor'. They are there to teach you to do it yourself, not be free legal advisors.

What is your 'friend' pro bono solicitors speciality? Is it landlaw? If not then I suspect it may be cheaper for you in the long run to pay a specialist land law solicitor.

Sorry to say it but it was neighbours like you and their refusal to give us access to land that we had access over in our deeds, that caused my last house move from a place that we were perfectly happy in - for a while. Till the litigious idiots moved in next door and put a farking 8' gate across everyones access to the rear passage. Shared access? Should come with a health warning.

That was a listed building also, and we had to get pp to put new windows in even though they were identical copies of the ones we were replacing, and were refused permission to alter an INTERNAL wall to make a bigger bathroom. You are proposing to alter and external wall and am also waiting with hat ready to eat if you get pp or get the work done for £2k.

Where did you think of your nickname? I think 'great big size nines' is more appropriate.

intolerant · 31/08/2008 20:49

nervousal..... probably where someone has built a kitchen extension over a shared passage!

Original poster
tinytoessize4 · 31/08/2008 20:50

bless! flibbertyjibbet, i wasn't refusing access - i didn't even know that she didn't have a key to be denied access to the RoW.

nervosal - it is odd, but then thats title deeds for'ya!

also flib - the work would be done sympathetically to the house character - that is the real basis for consent to listed pp, that it isn't some great neo-modernist monstrosity.

my friends fiance works in conveyancing/land law at a large firm in leeds.
thanks intolerant, FGMID and Wilf sorry it took so long to make myself clear.

The conservation officer is vrey nice and has talked us through it along with the really great architectural surveyor.

OP posts:
Original poster
tinytoessize4 · 31/08/2008 20:52

nervosal - we haven't gone and done the kitchen extension yet. it is best if you're going to do any kind of work to get pp first. and although you don't need to inform your neighbour that you plan to do anything it would be only polite to do so. hence where we're butting heads.

OP posts:
intolerant · 31/08/2008 20:58

Ah, but the thing is, you think you're being polite and informing her of your plans as "a courtesy" etc... but I think you might be unaware of how it's all coming across - to us as well as to her. It's a big ask, what you're suggesting, and I'm not that surprised she's reacted as she has.
On that dodgy link I posted earlier, it said that any work done to a listed building must be to a high standard. Now, obviously I don't know you or your DH, but you're clearly not builders. So is this to be a DIY job? The lime-plastering, of course, but the rest? For 2K it must surely be. What will the PP dept make of that?

Original poster
tinytoessize4 · 31/08/2008 21:03

we're re-using the units from the kitchen upstairs intolerant, and they've been handmade wood w/ belfast sink. so it is in keeping. we've also got the builders who renovated it a couple of years before us to do the wall removal and RSJ and i found the guy who does sliding sash windows and did ours befroe we moved in. so although its tight budget we're using it as well as we can!

OP posts:
lingle · 31/08/2008 21:05

Tinytoes, good luck with your problem. Hopefully you'll learn from this that you must always know the answers on the legal side before you give your neighbour warning of something that's just bound to upset them.

intolerant · 31/08/2008 21:11

Well, hopefully you won't need to spend any of the budget on a legal wrangle with her-next-door. Good luck.

BreeVanderCampLGJ · 31/08/2008 21:17

Are the school holidays not over yet ??

BreeVanderCampLGJ · 31/08/2008 21:17

Are the school holidays not over yet ??

BreeVanderCampLGJ · 31/08/2008 21:18

BTW

I got bored halfway through this thread.

Freckle · 31/08/2008 21:19

I don't understand why you are so indignant that she is wanting to hold on to /get compensation for a right of way that she never uses. It is an easement which adds value to her property whether she chooses to use it or not. And it is perfectly normal for the person wanting to change the status quo to pay the other side's costs.

Original poster
tinytoessize4 · 31/08/2008 21:26

i haven't even started on the school hols bit yet - me little nipper is only 18mths.

freckle-wouldn't you be slightly indignant in my position if someone who never introduced themselves, never used the passageway suddenly started quoting law at you and saying things like 'actionable nuisance' in regards to something you didn't even know she didn't have (the key)?

(rubs forehead soothingly) all i wanted was an extra bit of space and a nice convenient kitchen...

OP posts:
WilfSell · 31/08/2008 21:28
intolerant · 31/08/2008 21:29

Understandable, but not if it adversely affects someone else....

Freckle · 31/08/2008 21:30

Well, no I wouldn't be indignant. It is an easement attached to her property and you want her to give it up. I suspect that her legal response was probably a reaction to whatever you wrote to her. You've said that she didn't know the door was locked and therefore didn't have a key. If I had a right of access which was blocked by a door, unless the other party offered me a key to that door, I would assume it was unlocked. As I said, the fact that she doesn't use the right of way doesn't mean that she should be placed in a position where she can't use it. She should be given a key.

Original poster
tinytoessize4 · 31/08/2008 21:31

why hasn't this thread died yet????

OP posts:
intolerant · 31/08/2008 21:33

And it might affect the calue of her property...... unless she feels that a trade-off re: the other right of way round the back makes it worthwhile. Either way, she should not be out-of-pocket over it, regardless of the car she drives!

Original poster
tinytoessize4 · 31/08/2008 21:33

as i said earlier freckle, the door and lock were put on before we moved in. i assumed she already had a key to it, you'd have thought someone who used the passage would have twigged that it was locked quick enough

OP posts:
Freckle · 31/08/2008 21:35

But if she doesn't use the passage, she wouldn't know would she? And the fact that she doesn't use it doesn't mean that she should give it up because it adds value to her property.

intolerant · 31/08/2008 21:35

You know, with hindsight, it might have been an idea to drop a note through her door introducing yourselves and asking if you could arrange a time to speak with her about an idea you've had that could be to her advantage...