Oops! Just started an accidental neighbour dispute

[tinytoessize4]

Any legal eagles reading? Advice please...

We have a shared passageway only with next door, enclosed at either end, and locked at our end (we did not put the lock on and have evidence to prove this). We thought we owned it outright, but this is not the case as it is a restrictive covenant in the deeds. Anyway, we propsed to move our kitchen downstairs into the passageway area, knockig down our internal wall to create an open room. Yes, we know the planning permission necessary and checked this out. Out of courtesy we informed our neighbour of our pending planning permission application. We have a small son and one bedroom. We only have 2k to do the alterations. I'll continue...we informed her of this, and that she had never utilised the right of access since we had been there and never since the previous owner of our house had been there either. She got a wee bit shirty. Saying that we admitted blocking our passage by placing a lock on the door (!) to which she didn't have a key (why? because she never bothered to get one when whoever put the lock on did it.) and that this was actionable nuisance. grr. she said she wanted monetary compensation for this. We said we didn't have any money. But we do have a shared right of access across the back of her property. We offered to exchange this. She hasn't yet responded. We said it would be best if we met face to face (terrible but we haven't met her and we've been here 2yrs! We were talking by letter). She's a litigation lawyer and though I am a law student, still have a year left. She quoted James v Stevenson [1893] AC 291 at me but I couldn't find it on Westlaw. Where do we stand with regard to the fact the right of access hasn't been exercised by her for about 10yrs? is there any precedent of lapsed right of access? Sorry its long ladies & gents....

I'm afraid I'm going to have to agree with those that say you won't get the work done for £2k.

DP is a carpenter and builder and we have renovated a couple of our own places too so I have some idea of costs. eg. I know that theres no way you would get a door and sash window for the prices you've quoted (unless they're made of something not much better than recycled cardboard).

The overall job would cost £2k in materials, surveyor, electrician and plumber alone, let alone any builders fees.

Please be realistic about it as it won't be much fun, especially with a little one around, to run out of money when you've got a bare un-plastered room for a kitchen or a gaping great hole in the back of your house where there should be a window.

oh, I see I've missed the OP as that last big post she wrote appeared whilst I was typing.

you haven't really missed her .. nobody goes when they say they are going and this is my last word .. they linger to see what other's have said after their 'last word'

I'm a lawyer and whist I don't deal with planning I'm quite familiar with the Party Wall Act (having in the past been both the neighbour and the person building) so whilst there is a lot I could comment on with this thread I'm going to confine myself to a practical point on the PWA. Which is that it is going to blow your budget totally out of the water.

You are quite right that a PW awared CAN be drawn up by the parties. IF BOTH parties agree. Which she is never, in a month of Sundays, going to do. What you then have to do is appoint a surveyor which you have to pay for. She can either agree to use that one surveyor (which she won't) or she can appoint whomever she sees fit and YOU will have to pay for this. Between them they will then draw up the award with any dispute going to a THIRD surveyor which (guess what) YOU wil have to pay for. So you'll be above £1000 on party wall fees alone before you even start and it can take several months if she wants to drag it out. Fail to get the award and she will be able to injunct you to make you cease work. Which will be fun for you if a wall is half down.

But, hey, if you think you can get this into your 2k then well done you.

You know what tinytoes, you've slipped from dangerously naive and thick-skinned to downright self-aggrandising and offensive. Oh wait a minute, you did that before.

You're right about one thing: I am not a lawyer. But you know what I do know about that you don't? Human social interaction and community relations.

Yours are shocking. You deserve every unfortunate cost, writ and aggro you have coming your way.

FAO Wilf - copy of initial letter sent - is it that offensive?

22nd August 2008

No. 38

Dear No.38

I hope you don?t mind us writing to you. We are wanting to undertake some building work on our property and we are writing to you so if you have any concerns we can discuss them.

We are proposing to transform the adjoining passageway into a kitchen, through removing the internal wall in our house. We would repair your adjoining wall, which needs some work to it. We would also put a sash window, like the existing one we have on the other side of the front door, where the external front passageway door is, and where the rear panel door is currently we would put a split country kitchen style door, such as you have.

We hope that this won?t cause too much disturbance to yourselves, and would be very beneficial to ourselves by providing a new upstairs bedroom where the current kitchen resides, which, as we have a little boy, would be extremely useful for the future. We believe that this work would not be detrimental to the overall character of the house; and, as we are repairing your wall, would be useful to yourselves also.

If you do have any queries regarding this matter please pop round and we can talk this through.

Sincerely,

sent before we knew that there was a problem.

I thought you had gone away tinytoes? You seriously thought that your neighbour was going to agree because of that letter? I also hope you have taken note of what Armarda has written in her post above.

I think it is unlikely the right of access has lapsed and you need to check the Human Rights Act (or more importantly, the convention rights) and look at some of the recent cases on Article One of Protocol One - the right to property. You really do need to apologise to your neighbour and start trying to make a deal.

My thoughts on receiving that letter would be:

1. where are the plans?

2. "We hope that this won?t" er I haven't agreed to anything yet.

3. "as we are repairing your wall, would be useful to yourselves also" I'll decide whether my wall needs repairing thanks, and if it does I'll decide who does it.

BUt then I can't really picture this. Won't her wall end up your wall?

You didn't even mention that the land wasn't yours or her right of way! So it reads as though you are just going to do it - no please please please can we, we know the land is yours/shared we are willing to recompense you for it!

no, annh, i did not think that. i thought she would come round and discuss it. but she didn't. we weren't obliged to write the letter, but we felt it only polite. have borne in mind what armarda said in her post, presume she is referring to section 10 resolution of dispute pwa 1996. doesn't say anything about who foots cost though. really doesn't. unless its in a schedule at the end i missed.

well, is the letter really offensive? was it so tactlessly written?

You told her by letter that you were building on the passageway without mentioning that it was a shared access/her right of way?? No wonder she's p*ssed off and digging her heels in.

I think that 'We hope this won't cause too much disturbance' is a bit tactless tbh as it sounds as if you're just going to go ahead and do it. And telling her you'll repair her wall. I wouldn't let my neighbour repair my wall. I would want to choose the builder myself and have them pay for it.

I am nominating this thread for Mumsnet Classics!

tinytoes your legal research needs work if you missed this in section 11 (not a schedule) which directly follows s10 on disputes:

(1) Except as provided under this section expenses of work under this Act shall be defrayed by the building owner.

building owner being you.

www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1996/ukpga_19960040_en_1#pb5-l1g11

so to you too. Geez.

fgs -

castafiore - at that point we were unaware of the matter.

jimjam - well, if you got the letter i would expect you to come round and discuss it. instead of jumping on the defensive.yes, it would become an adjoining wall, and if you read the posts you realise w've covered all that.

not quite sure why its still going, and if anyone dares says its because of my sheer bloodymindedness look at some of your posts to see how you sound - reasonable?

go on, someone remark on my self aggrandisement and human interaction skills - please, like i'd say any of this in rl to any of you. but thats forums for you.

YOu thought she would come around and discuss it?

You weren't obliged to write the letter?

Unbelievably unintelligent.

It doesn't matter that you were apparently unaware of the access. She wasn't unaware of it and the letter sounds like you're building it despite her right of access. That is why she is now being difficult.

did read it. must have slipped my mind armarda. so legal research not missed just forgotten. as everyone seems so intent on reactionary posting....

crushwitheyeliner - have you ever gone for planning permission? you are not obliged to write to your neighbour. they will be informed of it anyway on receipt by the council of the application for consultation.

soupdragon - true, but she jumped on the bandwagon of the defensive and i didn't think it read like we were going to build it anyway.

or are my english language skills also at fault? (my spelling isn't up to much trying to keep up with the typing)

Tinytoes, the relevant section "slipped your mind"?! It didn't just slip your mind, you misinformed us on the basis of your research! And I quote:
she can have solicitors draw it [the party wall agreement] up if she wants to pay for it.

I am grateful you are not my neighbour but I hope when you qualify you never represent me in a legal matter!

If someone told (didn't ask- told) me in writing that they were building on land that I had right of access over and they were building right up to my wall (I still don't get this- does her wall become your internal wall) I wouldn't go round to discuss it I'd send a letter back telling them I didn't agree full stop.

also, would having your wall repaired for free not be okay?

It does read like you're going to go ahead anyway.
"We hope that this won?t cause too much disturbance to yourselves" and
"as we are repairing your wall"

These sentences need to be phrased completely differently if you want to make it sound as if you are only going to go ahead with her agreement.

Something like "If this work goes ahead then we would aim to minimise disruption to yourself and would of course repair you wall"