Husband wants to sell my pre-marriage flat to clear debts

[rdsh]

I’m just asking somewhere objective.

I have a flat I owned before I met DH. It is let out and the income is quite good. I do rely on it to a certain extent because I don’t earn much.

DH however wants to sell it: he wants to clear some debt.

I guess I’m just wondering WWYD … I want to keep it but part of that is perhaps because it benefits me rather than the whole family?

It is by no means your fault.

And every family forgets wipes or loses hats or incurs other incidental expenses, except my uncle because he can be a bit of an anal pita and saps the fun out of everything which wastes money in a different sense and I know exactly what you meant.

Most people could do better but it sounds like yours had been brought to a head and, as far as I can understand it, at least a one third chunk of this has been the new car - which was not even a decision you were involved in.

I am ‘protected’ @Yardbrushes . In the event of the marriage ending I would actually be far better off in a financial sense; obviously emotionally would be another matter. That’s not what I’m posting about.

If I wasn’t ’awake’ I’d have told the flat by now. I mean honestly I’m not sure DH wants to. I think it’s a lot of hand wringing and trying to make me feel bad.

One thing I’m not is vulnerable; I do get a bit pissed off when people just fling insults at me though

It’s probably true that I don’t know the exact details of DHs finances but the same is true in reverse as well. And it’s true that at the moment I’m not really contributing to the hills or mortgage as I don’t earn much and what I do earn is quickly swallowed by other stuff, but (as I’ve repeatedly pointed out to DH) that is not forever!

I’d actually appreciate wrapping it up now, tbh.

Can’t you use the income to pay down some of the debt? Sounds like you need to be more careful about with money

Well, quiet, and I actually don’t care about the car. I care about new cars coming home and then ‘ooooh we have to sell the flat we’re spending too much …’

It’s true in a broader sense though so I think what I can do is meal plan better so we’re not as haphazard with recipes and try to freeze stuff (I hate freezing stuff and reheating it but needs must!)

@rdsh I personally wouldn't sell your flat. But do look into capital gains tax rules. It may not even be worth selling. Rather keep it and continue the monthly income.

Always be prepared for the man to leave you and refuse to support his children. So keep the flat because in that situation you will need it.

OP sorry to tell you this but Teslas arent 20k they are quite a bit more than that.

You seem to feel unable to even talk to your husband about this as adults - can I ask, are you from a culture which has quite traditional roles for men and women where he is the 'head' of the household?

I don't understand why you cant sit down together and - without actually needing to merge your finances if that's not what you want - work out how much income you are bringing in between you and then tot up all the outgoings this income needs to cover.

Your income from the flat should be included in working out what's coming in, but by the same virtue you need to really work out ALL the costs, stuff that might not be a bill but still sort of does have to be spent eg haircuts, kids clothes, birthday presents, holiday spends, factoring in a pot of money for household maintenance. You need to put into the budgeting an amount to cover school holiday activities for example.
This is probably why you talk about 'unexpected' costs - you aren't budgeting allowing for all the real costs, every little thing you could have to shell out for.

But what is concerning here is you see to fe you have no say /no influence over your husbands side of this at all. No it shouldn't be the case that you are telling him he can't spend any money, but surely as his wife he respects your opinion and would want to tackle the family finances as a team?

I don't technically have joint finances with my husband, we both have separate accounts, but we regularly review our family finances together and ensure we are both responsible for a fair proportion of bills/costs, and both have a fair share of spending money and savings. We view all the money as 'ours' we just like having separate accounts, it's what suits us. Our family finances are nonetheless 'ours' together though.

Hi OP, I don't think you should sell the flat. It is not clear whether selling your flat or not will fix your money worries long term. The information you have provided her suggests that it won't but more to the point YOU don't know if it will fix the issues, as you don't have visibility of the issues. So the answer should be no until you know if DOES make sense (spoiler - it won't)

A couple of points really jump out at me:

• Your sense of not contributing as much so therefore you should not have as much 'say'. Try to put a price on the childcare you do (not just during work time but evenings / weekends). Whilst you are at it - put a 'paying a cleaner' price on all the housework you do (I bet you do the majority if not all). You may be surprised with the result and find you 'contribute' more than him.
• If you are not getting the free childcare hours, he must earn A LOT. Could he increase his pension contributions to bring you back under the threshold? You could then work more without the whole lot going on childcare (I do get the part about no wraparound school care but maybe changing school is the only sensible option - you should at least KNOW in order to reject it)
• Either your finances are joint or they are not. If they are, you need to do a joint budget to work out where you - both - can both save (as so many have said). If your finances are not joint, well then, the flat is yours so no discussion. Suggest his car goes instead maybe. Seriously, reiterate if you are expected to do that, you want to go through finances in detail and do a joint budget or you will blow the house money and end up at the same place.
• I'm willing to bet the house (well actually flat I guess) that the spending issues are mostly your husbands - probably car spending. This will become apparent when you do a joint review of finances. I suspect this is why you are getting so much push back to sharing. I would refuse point blank to make any sacrifices to your income unless you understand where your joint money is going and how your sacrifice will make a difference and why it is fair to ask you to do so. When your independent income goes, how are you going to pay for your life? Your finances are not shared after all.

I wouldn't sell that flat. You need to keep it

Meal planning while ignoring the giant Tesla shaped hole in your finances is a bit "tidying up the Deck chairs on the Titanic" though

I do think you should get some couples counselling to tackle this

Definitely get financial advice.
Debts can have huge recriminations & should be prioritised - if the debt is in your husband’s name but so is the mortgage, what happens if / when you need to renew your mortgage deal but can’t afford monthly payments due to paying off such a large debt? You could lose your current property. Which is worth keeping more?
You need to review and overhaul your finances together. If he’s not willing to I’d have deep concerns about your marriage and future together because if that is the case, if you pay this debt off I guarantee you it will happen again.

What is clear is that there is a communication problem, plus your husband and you seem to see your work of looking after the children to be valued at zero.

Although on the surface everything might feel fine, but this lack of communication and undervaluing your contribution, will significantly impact your marriage.

This is a really good post and very sound advice.

However, I still think you (OP) are mischaracterising the problem. It's really not about 'his' car, and 'your' flat.

You both are financially 'illiterate' (putting in quotes so that it doesn't sound like I'm being insulting - I really just mean neither of you seem to understand the basics like, how much household income you have, where it actually goes to, how much is discretionary spending and how much is essential, and is the balance fair, in terms of income / payments etc.

I agree, that it's mostly likely that all your income is going on child-related spending and you have no sense of control or autonomy as your DH is paying the big bills, but most likely, also has a lot more disposable income.

You need to get counselling / advice around this issue - both, I think. Counselling to unpick the relationship dynamic, and advice e.g. via reputable financial advisor or even your bank.

It's quite shocking to see the attitude you both have to finances and debt, when you have a family.

(And specifically on the flat - I don't think selling it without a wider review makes sense BUT equally, I don't think it's as simple as 'it's yours' and so you get to decide to hold onto it. You need to rationalise your spending, and address the debt and that WILL involve reducing spending, increasing income, and reviewing assets, your flat included).

I agree. I still don’t understand what the financial info is that you don’t know about OP. You say you know your and DH income. So it’s the monthly bills you don’t know about? People can have a good stab at estimating any you aren’t sure of, but it’s not normal for your DH to be refusing to give you this basic information.

If your DH is shouldering all the household expenses and you are spending all the income from the flat and your own earnings on unnecessary extras i'm not surprised he is concerned. Before even thinking about selling thd flat you both need to try and drastically cut back on spending untill the debt is cleared.

I think you have misunderstood somewhat @EarringsandLipstick

Counselling costs money and takes time; two good reasons why that’s not something I’ll be pursuing!

Thanks for advice, school run now.

You sound incredibly passive and dominated by your DH. I wouldn’t do anything yet apart from getting more on top of your finances. There is lots of help out there from Christians against poverty to Claer Barrett of the FT, who runs an online course and has written a book, available on Amazon. You mention your DH’s car - a 2023 Tesla could sell from 14-70k. The first step is find out all your assets, debts, income and how you both spend money.

Abs do not sell. If you own it outright and it’s generating a profit that supplements your income (
which has taken a hit on maternity leave - and how’s your pension holding up? Life insurance?) you must not sell a valuable asset like that to pay off debt. For one thing, would be liable for capital gains tax? My rental flat essentially doubles my income and it enabled me to take time out of work for childcare, travel and wider family support. It’s a great asset for my son to take over one day and it means that the huge gains in the London housing market from the early nineties to now have been kept in the family.

Make a plan. identify every penny of debt, and work together on a proper plan for paying off the debts out of income. Accept that there will be some setbacks but make a realistic plan and just get going.

My posts about the baby wipes was meant to be illustrative and explain how you can spend money without meaning to. Obviously, I don’t sit at home and say hey! I have a really good idea; I won’t take wipes with me! And I’ll forget a water bottle and while I’m at it I’ll lose a hat!’ With the best will in the world, we are human, things sometimes get forgotten or lost and I was trying to explain the day to day and how money can build up. Maybe I didn’t do a very good job explaining.

No one thinks you do, but it just isn't something you should really be doing when you are tens of thousands of pounds in debt. It's hard to keep track of everything when you are juggling kids, but find solutions, make a list of things you need to take out with you if needs be, and do an actual check off before you go (both of you, it's not your job to do these things), always plan ahead to take packed lunches/snacks and drinks.

You could also try just taking cash with you when you go out, set yourself a budget for the day, and only take what you need, that way you're less likely to be buying things you don't need.

I was the worlds worst for doing both things above and I had to find ways to combat the urge to spend incongruously, it's ridiculous how much kids can cost when you go out for the day etc and the urge to make them happy often overtakes the reality of what you can afford, it's a hard habit to break.

The above is honestly small fry though, nothing you are doing is a fraction of the sins he is committing here, buying a nearly new car and demanding you sell your asset to settle debts that he has let spiral out of control... just no.

Your flat is an asset, OP, and it can only be sold once, plus it's generating income. And it's likely to be an appreciating asset in the medium-long term, so it's an asset which will eventually be a bigger asset.

Your husband's debt, otoh, is a liability and one which is probably taking a big chunk of income to service. If that debt is partly deposit on the car, then a fair bit of it will be going on a depreciating asset. He could well be paying interest on money that is essentially going down the crapper as the car's value falls.

Paying off debt is a good idea, but only if you are able to avoid getting into more, which isn't often the case. I've seen too many people rack up more debt after releasing equity.

He's being a bit cheeky moaning about debt when he's presumably made the decision to have an expensive car without any consultation. Do you know how the debt has accrued? Or what it is costing to service the debt?

Imo you need a full and frank discussion and a budget. It seems crazy to me that he wants you to sell your appreciating asset while he's financing a depreciating asset that would probably have cost not much shy of £40k if he'd bought it outright. I'd want to know precisely how much that car is costing, even on salary sacrifice it could well be a fair chunk.

I was once given some advice by a friend of my mum’s: always own a second property that you can live in or life off if your marriage falls apart.

Not sure if this has been suggested already
But if you use the rent from the property you let out that's almost 5k a year off the debt. If you sell the flat you won't get this income anyway so I would aim this income to the debt.
I would stop any debt causing costs. So you only buy it if you have the money spare.
12 months no unnecessary spending. For example no clothes for you and husband, no take aways, no eating out. Ice creams from children are just brought from supermarket and had at home. Days out are packed lunches etc.

Essential costs bills, food, children needs are from joint pot.

Gym membership etc are stopped for 12 months.

All spare money is split 30 / 70 to saving / reducing debt.

We get use to over spending and sometimes need to cut right back to really find what we need and also where we are throwing money away.

Children love just being with parents, a family walk a trip to the park, helping in the garden, helping in the kitchen

That. It's your security.

@rdsh

So your DH has told you that the debt is around £65k but you have no idea what this debt consists of. You just 'accept' that you contributed to the debt.

If I were you I'd tell him you want to 'go over' this debt with him to see exactly what is owed and to whom. Because if he's including his car then like hell would I agree to sell my flat to pay off his car. And chances are if he took that off the table it would be pretty obvious that the rest of the debt probably wasn't that huge.

He bought that car without discussing it with you and he can continue to pay the monthly payment. I would NEVER divest myself of real estate because someone doesn't want to make a payments on a large debt they incurred without my knowledge or consent. Trust me, I learnt this the hard way when my now estranged DH talked me into refinancing our house and drawing equity to pay off HIS truck. It was the worst thing I ever agreed to. If I hadn't agreed our mortgage would have been paid off this year. As it is I have it hanging over my head even though I'm not living in the marital home anymore. And it would be more cash in my pocket when the house is sold as part of our legal separation.

I'm not in the UK, but I know there are organizations that help people figure out how to handle debt. You may want to talk to one or more of them. Because that flat is your lifeline and your security. NEVER let it go! I was married for 38 YEARS before my marriage crumbled. So never, ever say never.

@AcrossthePond55 what I’ve done is accepted that we as a family are in this debt. I think in the long term it would be better for us to hold onto the flat but if we can’t we can’t … the debt is manageable but the important thing is that it does not grow. I don’t actually think my baby wipe lack of organisation is the root of the problem but there are things I could do better and shall try to do so. I’m not sure anything else is helpful at the moment.