Avoid care home fees by divorcing!

[champchomp]

I know this sounds extreme but I’m thinking ahead. DH is a bit older than me and is having some health problems. We have no mortgage and he has a good pension and savings. I’ve seen instances where a spouse has entered a care home and the other one has struggled to pay the fees and had to sell up and use all the savings. Hypothetically speaking would divorcing and splitting assets protect some of the money and property. I know anything could happen between now and if my husband needs care but it worries me and we have children we would like to help financially if need be. I’d always be there for DH no matter what and visa versa. But financially does it make sense to financially separate/divorce if care is needed for either of us?

The hospital held a meeting about my mum yesterday, the agreement is that once she is in the home she will not be admitted to hospital no matter how ill she gets, she will treat her in the home which will be minimal medical care & keep her comfortable, it's what we have been wanting for ages she is worn out & told me before she went in that she was tired, missed my dad & wanted to be with him. Her swallowing reflex isn't working properly & she won't comply for SLT to assess her swallow, she is aspirating food into her lungs, she now weighs just over 6 stone, she was size 22 when she went into hospital on 10 October & now size 12 clothes hang off her. The SLT rang me today to ask for a list of foods she likes to try to tempt her to eat, I told her all she has eaten since she went in are tubs of custard, ice cream, jelly etc but after maybe 3 spoonsful she says she is full. I feel like her stay in the home won't be very long, she can't carry on as she is much longer.

So does anyone with any condition that requires social care. You don't have to be a medical professional to provide that care.

I don't believe that you really think about social workers. They have to operate inaccordance with the Care Act. They can't bend the rules for everyone that thinks their parent/aunt/spouse/friend shouldn't have to pay for care.

Social workers won't have all the answers regarding your parent's specific circumstances immediately. There are so many different scenarios that make up people's individual circumstances. It is a bit like lottery numbers. You have various scenarios set out in the Care Act and each person will have a different combination of factors. Social workers are not experts in financial assessments.

If your parent is self funding, there is no need to trouble social services at all, you can find some very nice care provision and pay the provider

@MikeRafone I think it was the accountant poster who replied to me saying that if UK based only they won’t be offshoring - I can assure her I know several businesses ( not in care sector admittedly) who have no overseas business at all but certainly do offshore for tax purposes - how they do it I have no idea but I needed to check a couple out and it was clear they were not paying tax here - so I came to the point - this is entertainment industry, in both cases registered and paying tax in Eire - big tax advantages to that !! Another one I know is registered and paying tax in Panama, has no connections with there at all business wise. We need to bring in a rule that as a limited company you cannot do business here if not paying tax here related to your UK turnover , this could either be putting them that they have to have a UK entity and pay corporation tax or a 2% at point of purchase tax if not ‘based ‘ here that goes to UK treasury - I’m sure this rule applies in plenty of other country’s without them all fleeing the country if business is good - yes this would affect Amazon, Google, Facebook etc - I think they can afford it - why should USAand Eire get all the corporate tax whilst they trade Scot free here and yes I know they pay VAT and PAYE, so do most other businesses of any size AND most others pay corporation tax if in profit .

@Itsmetheflamingo

Said they were an accountant - is this the poster you meant? they queried whether I had checked out the easy AI reply I had popped up, as they had on one company I had put up that is accused of offshoring and they couldn't find they were doing this. I gave them some of the research that I have come across by others that shows this is what has been happening.

Senior signature living for example, their accounts don’t show any relationship out of the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/oct/13/canadian-owners-of-signature-care-homes-avoid-uk-taxes-researchers-claim

I had believed that this was the same company

@MikeRafone indeed- I know it happens , people may not have clients doing this because they are mainly dealing with UK limiteds!! Most of these companies are not registered here , but all if not most of their trading activity is UK based.

I had to give up responding to Mike as it was just one way.

im not saying you can’t offshore profits (the companies named so far aren’t profitable though) but there are tests and regulations around this and it’s certainly not as easy as deciding you want to offshore it. These companies clearly have no direct operations outside of the uk and are the least easy companies to offshore. The rules of gift aiding profits etc don’t apply.

so I guess what it comes down to is you don’t know how they’re doing it, I don’t know how they’re doing it, and rather than offering insights I’m being given AI bots and newspaper links.

i am the one who has been through their registered accounts- I have put effort into understanding how they could do this. You are offering no effort and openly say you have no idea how companies do it. So we’re not really dealing with knowledge here are we?

Actually @Crikeyalmighty post a link to the accounts of the companies you’re talking about and I can take a look those for clues/ similarities

You do have to pay UK Corporation tax if your business is based in the UK.

Companies like Google and Facebook avoid UK tax by setting up a company abroad that e.g. charges for the use of the brand so that the UK business doesn't make a profit.

Signature senior lifestyle, for example, is a very small company registered in the uk
(companies house screenshot to load)

They do but these are extremely expensive, complex and frankly, rare corporate group structures for global conglomerates

signature living, with 275 care homes and £8m turnover isn’t in this league. I’m not saying it’s wrong, but on the face of it it doesn’t make sense

My MIL is being hounded to go into a care home but she wants to stay at home in her sheltered accommodation. All the people in question just kept going on about ‘what money has she got’😡
She has got difficulties but where she is at present (in an intermediate place after falling at home), they are sending home patients who can’t even walk when my MIL can. How can the care they get in care homes possibly cost £5000 per month. It would be cheaper having a live in nurse!

Yes - I was more pointing out that a company can't just register in Panama and be taxed there.

By its nature a care home business in the UK must be taxed where it is.

Although how many companies are coming up with a structure that isn't really legal and waiting to see what happens? The Zahawi approach.

Surely their turnover must be more than 8 million if there are 275 care homes?

Oh - I’m sorry I’ve mixed them up with hc- one whose accounts I also posted- they are the biggest provider of care homes in England wales with c275 homes (so still small)

im only looking at signature as Mike said they were offshoring profits

however their accounts (attached) confirm all their operations are in the uk and that they pay UK tax

Yep , I agree but it seems in my experience that plenty of smaller entities too , maybe not at the tiny level admittedly have some very borderline dodgy tax arrangements involving use of offshoring - so wouldn’t be suprised if some in the care home sector would use it if they are owned by an overseas corporation - make the money here, get it taxed elsewhere, but it isa complicated thing I know due to double taxation etc

Can you give us any examples of these entities? Their accounts are widely available. You assured me you knew plenty of businesses who did this (post of 10.40am) so should be straight forward?

I don’t understand this bold insistence of massive profit mongering, offfshoring, PE owned, asset stripped and yet no examples can be provided, just AI and links to newspaper articles. Surely there is some evidence of what you’re suggesting?

I can assure you that council provided care is absolutely not “exactly the same” as what you get when you are paying £1700 a week.

what happens if they have been married long time but only his name is on the deeds?

Which Government? It certainly won't be the Tories of Reform if they get in.

Hounded by whom? Some have a vested interest in having someone go to a care home - if they are self-funding they will be subsidising the Council-funded residents to the tune of several hundred pounds a week.
Once they are in, if the self-funding resident want to leave, they may and should be able to - but in some cases, the Council's social services can intervene to stop that, citing spurious safeguarding concerns.

if he is in a care old then she will be old enough that she cannot be forced out of the place he owns and she lives in whilst he is in a care home.

However, a charge will likely registered against the marital property

When he dies that charge can be called in, but if she continues to reside in the martial home she cannot be forced to sell it or to move out. In essence the charge will remain in place for as long as she lives there.

If she subsequently voluntarily moves out then the charge would be triggered and her situation may be rather uncomfortable as there may be no money left from the sale to provide her with enough to buy a place of her own

She needs to take professional advice and probably get it converted to at least joint tenancy ownership (or better tenants in common)