So it’s going to work out cheaper to run petrol/diesel cars than it is electric

[RudsyFarmer]

My engineer DP predicted this exact scenario when he replaced our old petrol/diesel cars with newer petrol/diesel cars. Plus there is now a supply issue with batteries which is going to cause a huge issue down the line.

Honestly it’s a scandal that these new cars are hugely expensive. People have locked into lease/hire agreements that are costing a fortune per month and now running the bloody things are going to be exorbitant.

I'm under no illusions that EV's are fairy dust and have zero impact on the environment.

It is this I have a problem with, so many are evangelical about EVs and gloss over any negatives, I agree with people like you.

I don't have an answer, the person that finds one will become very rich but much like I didn't believe the pushing of diesel in the 90's was the answer I don't think EVs are the answer now.

People probably think EVs don't have extra costs as most have only had them a year or two, most newish ICE cars don't need much repairs either, be more interesting a few years down the line to see what costs are needed

Typically you have the same components like suspension, brakes, AC. As these have been around for decades, they're easily fixed at regular prices.

Although servicing for ICE is more expensive and more frequent than an EV, regardless of age.

Otherwise all you have is a battery and motor. There isn't really much else. Batteries are typically warranted for 8 years and there aren't many moving parts in a motor.

The original Nissan Leaf is a good example of what can go wrong so worth looking up. Tesla's are now starting to come up with over 200,000 miles (taxis) with no real battery or motor issues) so is a good indicator.

And let's not forget the Prius, the OG of battery tech.

I believe it does.

It would be a nightmare if batteries and motors were unreliable as they're arguably the most critical part of an EV. It's what makes them totally different to ICE. Software is software.

I wouldn't touch an EV with a bargepole if they had serious hardware issues but they don't, because batteries and motors are incredibly simple and reliable.

What you need to bear in mind is that EV's have only just come to market. The ICE has been around a hundred years and manufacturers still can't make engines that don't fail, mostly because they're so complicated. JLR are still horrendous and you're lucky if a shiny new Range Rover doesn't dump all its oil on your drive.

I got a Nissan Leaf last year, I’m on the octopus go tariff which was 4.5p kWh overnight, and from Thursday I’m on their latest go tariff, which is 7.5p kWh.

I’m up in Scotland right now, we drove up from Portsmouth and had to charge twice, and paid £7.51 and then £15.68, so £23.19 for ~470 miles, so 4.9p/mile. Up here they have chargeplace Scotland, which is almost-all free charging, so we’ll be leaving with a full tank and we’ve paid nothing whilst we’re here to get around, and also left no tail-pipe emissions whatsoever to pollute their country.

Driving the car is a dream, the over-the-air software updates are wonderful, and I’m so happy with the car as a whole. It’s sad that some people are so negative about EVs that they are too blind so see the wood from the trees, and will happily jump on whichever is the latest lump of shit pessimism about them.

I don't think EVs are the answer now.

I'm definitely not an EVangelist as I still have a sports car for fun. I'm a petrol head. But for the everyday stuff, an EV is brilliant and far better than ICE. It might not be the answer but you're going to have to find something unbelievably good to beat them.

All major manufacturers are gearing up for electrification and they don't overhaul production lines on a whim. Most have extensive R&D and will have looked at alternatives before we even thought of changing to diesel.

The huge benefit of EV is that they're not fussy about the source of electricity and we already have the infrastructure. Perhaps the public charging network is lacking but it'll come and we also have the benefit of free electricity via solar. There isn't another fuel source that can claim that.

The downsides? Battery tech, capacity/range, weight, towing ability. But it'll improve.

We are hoping to get an electric VW campervan as they are just being released but will stick to our diesel SUV for general driving about, we will see how it goes with the camper and how easy charging is, they don't appear to be that much different in price to ICE campers

The tyre issue is something all cars have ICE and EVs. It is sad that the anti ev brigade have only started to shout about it since the rise of popularity of EVs as if it didn’t exist before EVs. Hopefully it will be something they can sort out.
Yes I agree, with you on that fact that most of the anti EV people support hydrogen. Don’t get me started on this one 🤯🤣

Otherwise all you have is a battery and motor. There isn't really much else.

There is.

If you had ever been involved with the design of EVs from the ground up, as I have, you would better appreciate how much else there actually is.

I wouldn't touch an EV with a bargepole if they had serious hardware issues but they don't, because batteries and motors are incredibly simple

Simple in principle, incredibly complex in execution.

Really, compared with a drivetrain, differential, all those engine parts etc?

I'm not diminishing the fact that EV's aren't substantial engineering products (I'm an engineer myself) but they're not as complex as ICE.

Although happy for you to break it down relatively.

Just to add. An EV is alleged to have 60% fewer components. I would say that's much simpler.

Just to add. An EV is alleged to have 60% fewer components. I would say that's much simpler.

Really, compared with a drivetrain, differential, all those engine parts etc?

You can play around with figures all day but it depends what you count as one component. If you regard a battery as just one component, for example, you might have something, but it isn’t. Is an IC engine one component or hundreds?

Most EVs have a drivetrain (which include differentials). They have to, to get the power from the motor(s) to the wheels. Some Teslas have two differentials.

I’m not anti EV, by-the-way. Far from it.

I've loved having our leaf for the last 4 years.

They are a dream until they go wrong. Ours developed a charging fault, it took several weeks to diagnose the problem then we were quoted £4k to fix it. Have managed to pick up the part from a breaker for £700 and fitting will be about £300, but we have had to buy another car in the mean time as the leaf was our only car. We will shortly be selling the fixed leaf and keeping the cheaper Diesel, then reassessing once energy prices calm down.

I appreciate that so am not arguing or diminishing what you do. I'm aero and have worked on new spacecraft with battery orbital control so understand these things aren't simple. Perhaps I made the mistake of saying that there's not much to it but was meaning relatively. Apologies if the comment was misleading!

I take your point about numbers and again it's general. I believe the 60% is a system level estimate as you'd be there for ages if you started counting piston rings etc 😂

But it still stands that gearboxes (for example) are typically single speed vs 6 to 12 on an auto (although I hear the Taycan has 2 speeds to enable more efficient/higher top speeds). So generally the drivetrain is simpler overall.

But it still stands that gearboxes (for example) are typically single speed vs 6 to 12 on an auto (although I hear the Taycan has 2 speeds to enable more efficient/higher top speeds).

Correct, the Taycan has a two speed transmission unit on the rear (with a differential) and a single speed unit on the front (again with a differential).

The rear unit is simpler than an 8 or 12, but both complex enough to keep gearbox manufacturers from sleepless nights.

Haha yes definitely.

@Grumpybutfunny We've gone for 6kw storage. I'm hoping that's enough!!

We procrastinated for ages about getting solar but with the price rises and our high electric usage with 2 EVs it became a no brainer.

We pay an extra £50 on our mortgage to fund the solar and battery and in return we can run our house on the cheap 7kw overnight rates all the time. With the potential price rises of energy, its the only way we could see at reducing the costs.

It's both amusing and disappointing to see that a fair amount of the population still treat new ideas and anything progressive as witchcraft.

Fortunately we no longer burn the witches, but our modern day equivalent seems to be to make up lots of misinformation and post it all over the Internet.

I don't think these are available anymore?

It is both amusing and disappointing to see a fair amount of the population are so easily brainwashed with propaganda to the extent that they refuse to accept that there could be any downsides and in order to keep their heads in the sand they resort to throwing insults.

Possibly not for new customers but my 5p/kWh deal is running out in October and they're putting me onto 7.5p/kWh for 12 months.

Octopus were still offering it this month as we switched to them to get it. You can’t do it online.

Hang on, I have storage heaters, put in in the 60s as brand new revolutionary technology that would help spread the load out over peak times. I'm on an economy 7 type tariff to accommodate them and can't even change provider due to this.

The problem is, they have told us in recent years the power use doesn't need to be spread out and so now your standard economy 7 heating tariff has basically the same price for daytime and overnight use. The heaters, although MN tells me heaters can't possibly be inefficient are really inefficient because they have to be on for 12 hours out of every 24 whether you want them or not. Sure, 12 hours power for 24 hours heat is nice, but we replaced them with plug in electric convector heaters that we just turn on when we feel cold and turn off when we're out and we saved 2/3.

Why are EVs suddenly getting these ultra cheap tariffs but ours isn't allowed any more? It doesn't make sense!