MLM bot watch - Continued discussion of the network marketing companies Forever Living, Herbal Life, Juice Plus etc as a pyramid scheme or scam

[CheekySmile]

Still continuing the discussion of the various network marketing schemes or multi-level marketing schemes (MLMs) that people we know are involved in.

If you have an MLM bot of your own then join us and share their claims and content.

Or if you are researching a company before signing up to be a network marketer please take a look at the previous threads here and here and also this thread which delves deeper into the workings of MLMs.

And don't forget our very own MN MLM Timeless Vie!
www.facebook.com/timelessvie
www.twitter.com/timelessvie
www.timelessvie.wordpress.com

Toobusytowee At the risk of sounding patronising, look at the example of Bill Ackman and Pershing Square Capital.

More than $100 millions of private capital has been pumped into investigating, and exposing, 'Herbalife,' but this 'MLM' racket is still operating all over the globe.

www.factsaboutherbalife.com/

Pershing has got essentially the same myth busting Sites on the Web which you describe, but referring exclusively to 'Herbalife'.

eyespy consider what others have said above (bovny puts it well). I know you're telling the truth. Your credentials and research are impeccable and needed, but perhaps not so much on this BotWatch thread. This thread needs to be different from the other thread - I really believe that, having been engaged with this for so long. BotWatch is working. Please don't damage the headway we are making.

Eye do you have to analyse every post here to show which bit you feel isn't quite right? It is patronising and demoralising.

What driech said. I have read a lot of eye's work having been made aware of the whole MLM thing by the bot watch thread, and I found it really interesting.

Even so, I don't like reading people being criticised or put down. The very long posts and the patronising corrections are meant very well I'm sure (now I'm patronising) but I worry that people will be unwatching this thread in droves if it carries on the same.

lazycoo - On the whole I agree with you: the more people who come to this thread, the better, but I think you might be slightly over-reacting. This thread hasn't been damaged by me, but it has been given a good shake (not a 'Herbalife' shake).

By the way, it wasn't only you who brought me to this thread, there were other MN members who asked me to enter the Bot-Watch discussion.

A good shake??? No one but you eye saw this thread as needing a shake up.

Someone quit the thread because of your tone, eyespy. That's what we know of. We can't know how others are taking your posts and assess the quantum of the damage - but I consider someone feeling unwelcome here as 'damage'. I'm guessing of course, but I can't imagine anyone extended an invite for you to join BotWatch with a view to you lecturing and poring over every detail posted here. If you can rein it in I would be grateful.

dreich The very small part of your post which I highlighted is right at the heart of the entire 'MLM' problem. I wouldn't have mentioned it if I didn't think it was important. Each time I read or hear the word 'selling' in connection with 'MLM' racketeering, I'm demoralised; particularly when it comes from commentators who know that 'MLM' is a fairy story. I'm not patronising you, but I can see why you feel patronised.

Putting all that aside, did you agree with the point which I made?

Just stop it please eyespy - if someone feels patronised, isn't that your cue to just stop?

I don't think he can lazy which is a shame as it's impossible to take in the useful stuff due to the way it's presented.

I like the idea of the myth busters and I think the ones mentioned are great.
I think we need to be as careful as possible of backing up every stat we have with strong evidence otherwise people will pick a whole and disbelieve it all - better to . Eg. 99% of MLMs fail - have we got the links for this (eg we can attach the links to the Arbonne stats, here are the equally da mining herbalife ones)
iamherbalife.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/StatementOfAverageGrossCompensation.pdf

I am no google expert, but I think it would be great if our thread came up on the search 'is forever a scam' - at the moment it doesn't. Anyone any ideas how the next thread title could be changed so it gets more hits? I have no search engine knowledge, but E.g. 'Is Forever Living a Scam? Discussion of facts and myths of Network Marketing Companies.'

dreich So you agreed with the point I made, but you didn't like the way I made it?

No I'm saying I can't take in what you said because of how you wrote that whole post. Words are as much about tone as they are content.

Pink truth has quite a good bullet point summary of Robert fitzpatrick's report which shows the 99% loss rate.

www.pinktruth.com/mary-kay-facts/myth-of-mlm-income-opportunity-99-lose-money-in-mlm/

dreich - Thanks for the clarification. Tone was the last thing I was thinking about. I was only trying to be absolutely clear, because 'MLM' is such a minefield. My apologies.

I agree we must back up our facts with evidence. It will make the bots' claims even more unsteady because they can't back anything up.

I got the car plan information from the FLP handbook at 4.63 gallery.foreverliving.com/gallery/GBR/download/Policies/CompanyPolicySept2012.pdf

The bit about inheriting the position at death is at 9.10.

darceybussell - Robert FitzPatrick has collected mountains of data about hidden 'MLM' churn/loss rates. He would be more than happy to advise anyone contacting him from this forum.

When you talk to 'MLM' observers in private, most of them say that even the 99% figure is a gross under-estimation, because it doesn't take into account the overall picture sometimes going back decades. The hidden overall loss/churn rates for 'MLM' rackets can actually be described as being effectively 100%.

Thank you eye I do appreciate the apology. I think I'm particularly irritated as I do believe you have a lot of knowledgable information which is being wasted due to delivery.

Now let's go back to fighting our common enemy rather than each other.

I'm confused which is the light-hearted and fun thread about FL and which is the thread that's deeper and more formal?!

Fighting amongst ourselves certainly isn't going to win the battle versus these mlms. I think we can all appreciate eyespyings insight into the subject and he's clearly passionate having had his own family get drawn in. Perhaps his language is too abrasive for some and they feel it's patronising but I'm sure it's not intended with any malice.

I think having two threads with a clear distinction helps but it shouldn't mean people can comment on one and not the other. I found the Herbalife video very interesting and would never have known about it if eye hadn't posted it here.

The more serious deeper analysis thread is here Rude

Bob, there is another thread somewhere on mn from a poster setting up her own marketing company and offering free advice to sharpen her skills. Obv tv is satire but one part of the advice she was offering was help with Google searches. If no one else can find it I'll look later. ( is that a good or bad idea?)

It seems to me that attacking mlms 'from the top', which eye has spent 20 years doing, is not working. Not through lack of effort.

I don't hink that attacking from the bottom, spreading knowledge and warning potential victims and ridiculing them, as the this thread is doing, maybe more effective. Cutting off the supply of victims.

Bov- not Bob!

Gimlet1984 I freely admit that I can be far too blunt for some people who don't know me, but that's me. I am genuinely upset when good guys like dreich and lazycoo are miffed with me, but having a bit of a row is always a healthy thing.

'MLM' racketeering is both a tragedy and a comedy, so the two threads were inevitable. I've probably brought too much tragedy to the comedy thread, but no one has been bringing comedy to the tradgedy thread.

Perhaps we need another, tragicomic, thread?

Fishboneschokus In the end, we are all doing what we can to educate potential victims, regulators, legislators, journalists, etc.

As for attacking 'MLMs' from the top not working. The current investor activist-provoked regulatory/media/legislator interest in 'Herbalife,' only came about because Wall St. researchers found the research and analysis of dogged observers (like myself and Robert FitzPatrick) freely-published on the Net.

There still remains the possibility that if the 'Herbalife' racket falls, the whole 'MLM' house of cards could quickly follow.

I think your right Eyespying. The fact that the founder of Forever Living Rex Maughan has a sizeable property portfolio suggests that he has already prepared for the bubble to burst and once one Mlm has fallen they all should since they seem to share the same ponzi format.

The bots all harp on about how normal people work to make someone else rich but fail to realise their joining fees to the company and continued financial enslavement have made someone else rather wealthy indeed and it won't be themselves anytime soon.