MLM bot watch - Continued discussion of the network marketing companies Forever Living, Herbal Life, Juice Plus etc as a pyramid scheme or scam

[CheekySmile]

Still continuing the discussion of the various network marketing schemes or multi-level marketing schemes (MLMs) that people we know are involved in.

If you have an MLM bot of your own then join us and share their claims and content.

Or if you are researching a company before signing up to be a network marketer please take a look at the previous threads here and here and also this thread which delves deeper into the workings of MLMs.

And don't forget our very own MN MLM Timeless Vie!
www.facebook.com/timelessvie
www.twitter.com/timelessvie
www.timelessvie.wordpress.com

Toobusytowee - I presume you realise that essentially the same techniques which are being used to bait and trap the vulnerable and unwary into terrorist groups, are also present in 'MLM' cults

Remember, I am speaking as someone who completely failed to bring my own relatives (mother and brother) back to reality from the 'Amway' fairy story. That said, at the time I was engaging with them (which is 20+ years back), I didn't have any of the knowledge of cultism I now have, whilst I was living hundreds of miles way from them and was desperately short of funds for travelling. Also, this was at a time when the Internet was not around and I didn't have anyone to come with me to help reason with my mother. I considered my brother (whom I'd never been close to) to be a lost cause, knowing that he was the prisoner of his own ego. In short, my brother's own personality just couldn't allow him to admit that he'd been duped and used to try to dupe everyone he knew.

The easiest people to fool, are always well-educated people who are completely convinced that they cannot be fooled.

It might seem like a depressing thing to say, but there are some severe and inflexible, chronic cult adherents, who will go to any extreme rather than face reality.

My advice to anyone trying to challenge a new 'MLM' convert is to stay cool and try to ask them thought-provoking questions, and to demonstrate that you have detailed inside knowledge of what they are being taught by their handlers. If you spout their group's own scripted closed-logic arguments against 'negatives,' before they do, that usually takes the wind out of their sails.

In general though, I've found that it's best not to challenge 'MLM' adherents directly. Remember, they've been given the illusion that they made a free choice to join, so its best is they make a free choice to leave.

You have to maintain contact, and impress on them that you care about them and will be there for them, when it all goes wrong. Something which I never was given the chance to say to my mother.

There are various other techniques used by cult counsellors, such as trying to take adherents back in their minds to a time before they fell under the influence of their group.

I've found that one of the most helpful things to say is that, in life it's your real friends who always tell you the truth no matter how painful this might be, whilst your enemies tell you ego-building lies.

Having said all that, each cult convert is an individual case and some approaches will work on certain converts which won't work on others.

In many case if the adherent doesn't have access to cash or credit, the group itself will soon lose interest in them. So try not to let them get their hands on money ar anything of value.

The more you know about how cultism functions, the more chance you have. The more you know about how the adherent was lured and ensnared, the more chance you have of finding the right approach to help them to find the exit.

I would advise relatives and friends, to read 'Cults in Our Midst' by Prof Magaret Singer. In the UK, the only cult advice association which I know to be trustworthy, is 'The Family Survival Trust.'

Anyone on this forum wanting to contact me in private, can do so via [email protected]

Toobusytowee - Ive just been reminded that I should have recommended reading my own pamphlet, 'The Universal Identifying Characteristics of a Cult (A common-sense approach to cultism).'

This pamphlet is incorporated in various free-to-access articles on my Blog, but there are also printed copies available.

Thanks Eyespying. I have just ordered 'Cults in our Midst'.

If you spout their group's own scripted closed-logic arguments against 'negatives,' before they do, that usually takes the wind out of their sails.
So, it might be good to go into this in a bit more depth, as it might help some in this thread discuss in more depth with loved ones. The one I often see is, 'you aren't properly educated about this opportunity.'

Toobusytowe Sadly Margaret Singer is now no longer alive. You will notice that the foreword to her book was written by Prof. Robert Jay Lifton who is still around (when last I checked). Lifton (whom I once briefly met) has written some very heavyweight, and frightening, books on cults and mind control. His first effort was 'Thought Reform and The Psychology of Totalism, 1961,' which is best read in summary. Lfton is one of the few authors to make reference to the historically important (but largely forgotton) intellectual, Eric Voegelin.

When people accuse me of sounding lofty and being difficult to follow, I point them in the direction of Eric Voegelin - just show them what lofty and impenetrable writing really is.

I never got to meet Margaret Singer, but she was a great friend of my good friend, and fellow cult observer, Dr. Edward Lottick, who sadly now is no longer active. Margaret was a person with a great sense of humour and this comes accross in parts of her book, which is easy to read.

sminkypink

Have you read this linked article; particularly, the questions at the end?

mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.fr/2015/06/forever-living-products-flp-cult-secte.html

Remember, all cults are controlled by essentially the same 'us vs them' 'negative vs positive' fiction, so when dealing with a cult adherent, you should try to remain outside the fiction and invite them to think critically.

Cult adherents are taught to expect only 'negative' or 'positive' reactions, so they don't know what to do if you don't conform to their controlled two-dimensional model of reality.

On the cover of my pamphlet I have a version of the classic optical illusion of two black faces in profile, or one white vase. An interesting approach to cult adherents is to show them this image and casually ask them what are three things they see.

www.123opticalillusions.com/pages/Facevase.jpg

In fact, what are the three things?

Children can usually answer this question, but many adults, and particularly cult adherents, can't.

A rabbit?

eyespy when I said hello to you a few pages back, I didn't expect you to take this as invitation to start posting on our thread and certainly not as you are now. Naive of me and to those who are annoyed that I poked that particular hornet's nest, I apologise.

I'm concerned that your dogmatic insistence of putting the message over method is harmful to what we are trying to achieve through keeping an often light hearted, bantery tone on this thread.

I winced as I read your post to rose and understand why she left. To me this group is about inclusion (which you may feel is rich considering what I'm saying to you) and fun. There's no need to be so challenging. The depths to which these MLMs stoop and the fact they are cults is apparent to many reading the threads without being patronised.

I got a pat on my head and a put down by eye for my earlier post too. My business if I feel patronised or not but what I don't think should happen on this thread is one person using their been around the block experience to tell others it's not worth trying to fight these mlms. Every suggestion is disparaged with 250 words explaining why the approach is flawed.

I'm not dreaming that we could ever bring down a whole mlm but I'm bloody well optimistic that we can significantly raise awareness of the smoke and mirror lies these cults peddle and cut the supply chain of new recruits.

If we go back to the suggestion I made in my earlier post let's put some myth busters in the first post. New posters on this thread again and again ask for help in knowing what to say to the people who try to recruit them.

I think it's interesting to have eyespy's here. I don't follow the other thread and like having another angle to the whole thing presented. There's only so much we can gain from laughing at memes and misspelt statuses.

It's up to you if you engage with, or even read his posts.

There was an idea to have a myth busting post on the blog and then link to that in the op of our threads.

To be fair all of the posts on the blog are myth busting now...

Agree about the blog post cheeky if people click on the link.

toobusytowee

When I first joined someone said to me 'not you aswell' so felt judged from the onset. As time went on, I felt like I was being lied to (but very subtly). I was told to cut all negativity out of my life, this is why people get in so deep so quickly with their forever teams. They cut everything else out of their life so have to rely on their forever friends. I was also told that if someone isn't going to put in the work there was no point working with them and I noticed this as I pulled away too. I haven't spoken to a lot of my upline since I backed away. Not one has asked if I'm ok.

You're told you just need to do your 4cc per month to get your bonus but once you have a manager team (so one of your downline goes manager too), the goalposts change and you need to do 12cc outside your manager leg to get paid on them. I found it hard enough to do 4cc without having to do 12cc. This was never explained to me before I joined, but then its my own silly mistake as I didn't understand what I was reading in the t&c's. It took me quite a while to get my head around the marketing plan, but once I fully understood it, I think that helped me realise it wasn't for me.

Plus I didn't have the money to be using 1cc per month myself. That's £159 wholesale per month on Aloe. Granted that could be sales too but what if you don't have any customers one month?

clarinsgirl that looks like a mlm called nuskin. I've seen it floating around a lot recently too.

Juice plus is another. A juice plus rep last year stole photos from a girl who lost a lot of weight on Slimming World and used them to promote her capsules and shakes. The images were shared by a lot of JP reps (probably not knowing the truth) The SW girl even asked for her images not to be used as she had never touched JP capsules, but it was already out there on the internet.

Also, if you have a friend that leaves mlm please don't say to them 'I told you so'. Just let them know you're there for them, that they can chat about it if they feel up to it/ready. Depending on how deep they got involved, it could take them a while to recover from it.

You must have got quite high up in FL then Ray?

dreich - If you felt patted on the head or put down by my earlier post to you, then I'm sorry, but all I was trying to do was try to show you (and other MN members) that you've got to choose your words with absolute care when explaining this phenomenon.

'MLM' racketeers have spent countless millions of $ trying to convince regulators and judges that what they are engaged in, is 'selling products'.

I've never said that its not worth trying to fight 'MLM' racketeers, what I have said is that since the late 1940s, 'MLM' racketeers have been allowed to mutiply, because regulators, attorneys, etc., who have brought some of them to court, have failed to choose their words with absolute care.

The problem ony really exploded when the 'Amway' racketeers were brought to court in the late 1970s and were faced by FTC prosecutors who hadn't really got a clue what they were facing.

The lady who got the £15.53 cheque... She's a classic example of MLM churn. In Jan 15 she posted a picture of her with her uplines cheque ($7k). People congratulated her on it as she used it as her profile pic and she had to explain that it wasn't hers but her goal...
She's not posted about forever since October. Poor lady.

For what it's worth, I think having the two separate threads worked well, I was following both and do feel eyespying has loads of useful and insightful things to say, but it has taken over this thread quite a lot and harder to post when you know your lighthearted (or otherwise) post will be judged and dissected so I do feel it may be reducing traffic and engagement. Please keep the other thread going though!

I think 2 threads works well. The lighthearted thread did encourage people to find out more and was good for traffic.

I think a lighthearted thread is a good thing. I think it's important as we are busting those lies in real time.
Bovnydazzler I've noticed that, too, the 'successes' posted on the bots pages usually aren't anything that they had any involvement in, usually it's their upline or someone in someone elses upline. I mean how many times was Shingles barn post shared. 85 times? If you scroll through, shared by women who haven't been in the scam for more than a few months.

Here's some ideas for the myth busting page of things recruiters tell you vs the truth-

LIE- FL gives you a willable income so your children's future is secure. TRUTH- if your child is over 18 when you die they can take your place in the pyramid and receive income as long as they keep up the selling and recruiting.

LIE- after only a few months people are eligible for the car plan that lets you buy your dream car.
TRUTH- you need to move 300CCs each month to receive a monthly payment of £525. Payments stop if you don't achieve this. 1CC is £212 retail value. Recruiting someone is 2CC.

LIE- people are earning huge amounts of money for very little work an it is easy to fit around your home commitments.
TRUTH- There is NO evidence anyone is on great money at all. A very very small percentage of people get large one off payments with giant cheques. According to Forever stats- In 2010, revenue was 1.7 billion, and the company was selling its products through 9.3 million distributors. That means each distributer brought in $182.80! That is £125.39. The commission on this won't be much.

lazycoo- You must admit that the person who commented earlier did seem to be asking where 'MLM' experts/economists could be found. She then said that we are the 'MLM' experts/economists whom she was referring to, so I apologised to her. Hopefully she will remain.

I accept that what I have say about 'academics' can seem patronising and depressing to some followers of this thread, but I'm only telling them the truth.

LIE- there are many health benefits to using Aloe and bee products. TRUTH- there is no evidence Aloe Vera is good for anyone. The skin of the leaf can be a laxative. FL bots have to use vague language and anecdotes to hint at how amazing it is but none of it is true.

LIE - FL is cash rich and debt free so therefore it must be a really successful company and worth joining.
TRUTH- it is only cash rich and debt free because the distributors are not paid a wage, there are no overheads, no pensions, sick pay, retailing costs etc. FL makes money if a distributor makes loads of sales and is successful and they make money if someone joins, spends a bit of money and leaves. They make money even if a struggling distributor makes huge losses and ploughs their own savings into the company trying to make it work.

LIE:You can make any sort of living out of an MLM.

TRUTH: The evidence shows that 99% of MLM distributors are actually making a LOSS! This does not just mean 99% don't make the big money, or 99% don't make much money - 99% are actively losing money! The chances of making any kind of living at all are virtually zero.