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'FL / MLM' Thread 3

648 replies

Eyespying · 12/08/2015 08:43

Continuing the valuable discussion of 'Forever Living' and other 'MLM/commercial' cults.

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stopfaffing · 26/09/2015 07:32

How MLMs get around the whole "Pyramid Scheme Scam" question...

Quote: ^"The key feature is that a pyramid scheme pays its distributors rewards “for recruiting other participants into the program?…?which are unrelated to sale of the product to ultimate users.”

So if an MLM were to pay its distributors, say, $150 for each new recruit it signed up, it would probably be a pyramid scheme. Few MLMs are so foolish as to do that. Instead, they typically pay a distributor—as Herbalife does—based on the products he orders, and on the products ordered by his first three levels of recruits, i.e., his direct recruits, his recruits’ recruits, and his recruits’ recruits’ recruits. (A distributor’s recruits and all their recruiting descendants are referred to collectively as his downline.)

While it’s true, then, that no distributor is paid for recruiting as such, it’s also true that no distributor will ever achieve the upper echelons of an MLM’s compensation scheme, including Herbalife’s, without recruiting.

Further complicating the analysis is another striking feature of virtually all MLMs, including Herbalife. Whereas conventional businesses pay salespeople based on their sales, MLMs pay them based on their purchases (and those of their downlines). While the hope is that the products purchased by distributors eventually find their way to consumers or are consumed by the distributors themselves, it’s hard to be sure that they are."^

This is where MLMbots buy their 'monthly quota' and end up having to store it, unused, at their home.

And this...

Quote "While judges and economists have proposed other definitions, most boil down to this: The more genuine a company’s product, and the more genuine the consumer demand for it, the less likely it is that the company is a pyramid scheme. With a pyramid scheme, the product is little more than a fig leaf camouflaging what is, at its core, an elaborate chain letter."

Eyespying · 26/09/2015 08:04

I don't know about 'in-depth'; the author of this sloppy Fortune Magazine article exhibits moral relativism - typical of today's timid journalists with attorneys, editors, accountants, owners, etc., constantly looking over their shoulders, counting the dollars.

What the author completely failed to comprehend, is that if you examine a totalitarian/two-dimensional fiction with misplaced objectivity, and fail to identify, and condemn it as a lie, you risk becoming part of the lie yourself. Unfortunately, an 'MLM' adherent would read this ammoral and sloppy article as being independent mainstream media proof that his/her group cannot be a fraud.

A lie which all a lie, is easy to fight, but a lie which is in part the truth, is an entirely different matter.

The morally, and intellectually, rigorous, common-sense questions which journalists never want to answer, are:

What have been the overall quantifiable results of so-called 'MLM income opportunities?'

What would be my personal reaction if someone I love came to me and said that he/she had signed up with a group like 'Herbalife' or 'FLP?'

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Eyespying · 26/09/2015 08:29

stopfaffing You recognise how the 'MLM' trick has been pulled, but the 'Fortune Magazine' author was not allowed to publicly, because that would probably lead to an expensive lawsuit.

The threat of litigation, has always been a means of shutting-down the critical, and evaluative, faculties of the casual observers of cultic groups (particularly, those of journalists).

Had the author of the Fortune article looked beyond the end of his nose and done some thorough research, he would have seen that, despite what it says in the absurd 'MLM' fairy story, for 60-odd years, the hidden function of effectively-unsaleable 'MLM' wampum has been to launder unlawful losing-investment payments into countless, copy-cat, dissimulated closed-market swindles, or pyramid schemes, based on the constantly-churning victims' false-expectation of future reward.

The 'MLM' wampum itself has been a means of committing fraud and obstructing justice. As such, it forms part of an overall pattern of ongoing major racketeering activity (as defined by the US federal Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organisations Act, 1970).

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Eyespying · 26/09/2015 08:46

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FindoGask · 26/09/2015 21:36

What is the best way to help someone you know who has fallen for the Forever Living bullshit? A friend of mine - once close, but haven't been in proper contact other than facebook for a few years. She's had a bad two time with mental health issues recently which she has posted quite a lot about. Now she's set herself up as a FL consultant and is trying to start up her business on facebook, has set up a blog, is touring events with her stall in the sport that she's involved in. She's crediting FL with helping her get on top of her depression.

I'm just worried about her. I don't feel I know her well enough any more to get in touch with some of the information given here, for example. Or even to tell her I'm worried about her. I don't know how to establish contact without looking like I was prying. I think she would cut me out, she often refers to negative people in her life in her facebook posts - people who just try to bring her down - and I'd be on that list in a flash and then she wouldn't listen to anything else I had to say.

She is such an intelligent person, usually a very critical thinker. I can only think that someone has targeted her because her frankness about her mental health issues have made her seem like an easy target, and that worries me a lot.

Eyespying · 26/09/2015 22:40

FindoGask Persons with previous, or current, mental health problems, particularly depression, are meat and drink to 'MLM' cult recruiters.

The problem is that conversion to a group like 'FLP,' can actually bring persons out of depression, albeit temporarily. All of a sudden, 'MLM' converts have got lots of people wanting to 'help' them and be their 'friend,' as a well as a new purpose in life.

Indeed, I saw how the 'MLM' bullshit produced euphoria in a previously-depressed member of my own family (my brother) who was recruited into 'Amway.' It was then impossible to convince other members of my family that 'MLM' is dangerous.

The effects of cults are quite real, but what is producing these effects, is completely false.

'MLM' conversion has been described as like starting to take a dangerous drug. In the very worst cases, 'MLM' adherents can become completely dependent on their groups, and they will beg, steal or borrow to keep getting their fix.

Do you have any idea who is your friend's doctor/psychiatrist?

Apart from the obvious financial dangers, for many years afterwards, recovering former 'MLM' cult adherents can suffer from psychological problems (which are also generally indicative of the victims of abuse): depression; overwhelming feelings (guilt, grief, shame, fear, anger, embarrassment, etc.); dependency/ inability to make decisions; retarded psychological/ intellectual development; suicidal thoughts; panic/ anxiety attacks; extreme identity confusion; Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder; insomnia/ nightmares; eating disorders; psychosomatic illness; fear of forming intimate relationships; inability to trust; etc.

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FindoGask · 26/09/2015 22:49

"The problem is that conversion to a group like 'FLP,' can actually bring persons out of depression, albeit temporarily."

I definitely think that is what is happening here. She has a sense of purpose now, and is posting a lot about how energised and determined she is, but I can see how shortlived that will be, and then what comes after the crash?

I have no idea about who her doctor is. To be honest I think she's just under GP care like most people with depression in the UK. She doesn't have a psychiatrist.

Eyespying · 26/09/2015 23:03

FindoGask - You already see this very clearly.

I should mention that, in the overwhelming majority of cases, 'MLM' adherence is only brief. That said, your friend sounds like someone who might need to persist, and who might also have access to the necessary funds to do so.

Is your friend someone whom you would have described as a person who found difficulty laughing at herself or admitting that she could be tricked?

Do you know any members of her family, or other friends, who could also be concerned about her involment with 'FLP?'

Does your friend have any traditional religious belief?

Do you think your friend is aware that 'FLP' is linked to the 'Mormons?'

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Eyespying · 27/09/2015 09:43

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LadyShirazz · 29/09/2015 20:04

Thought you might like this:

www.scarymommy.com/how-to-lose-facebook-friends/

Sorry if already posted.

Glad to see our collective piss-take lives on in a new thread!

LadyShirazz · 01/10/2015 21:33

Please don't let me have killed the thread... Sad

Eyespying · 01/10/2015 22:01

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stopfaffing · 02/10/2015 07:11

Don't panic, lady Grin I'll keep it going

stopfaffing · 02/10/2015 07:12

Bags last post Wink

Eyespying · 02/10/2015 08:32

To take the discussion in another direction - recently I was asked if 'MLM' has any precedent? I initially replied to this question, by posing some further questions:

  1. 1938-1939, how many individuals in total signed contracts, and started to hand over their money, believing that, in just a few years, they would be driving their very own 'Volkswagen/People's Car?'

2 How many of these original would-be 'People's Car owners,' actually received a 'People's Car?'

  1. How many of these original would-be 'People's Car owners,' subsequently got their cash back?
  1. Since the instigation of the first 'MLM income opportunity' in the USA in the late 1940s, how many individuals in total have signed contracts, and started to hand over their money, believing that, in just a few years, they would be receiving endless profits from their very-own 'MLM'/People's 'Business?'
  1. How many of these would-be 'MLM'/ People's 'Business owners' have actually generated an overall net-profit?
  1. How many of these would-be 'MLM' People's 'Business Owners' have subsequently got their cash back?

mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.fr/2015/09/volkswagen-scandal-2015-nothing.html

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Eyespying · 02/10/2015 08:47

By the way, the answers to the above quentions are:

  1. Millions.
  2. None.
  3. None
  4. Millions.
  5. Effectively-none.
  6. Effectively-none.
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Eyespying · 03/10/2015 08:22

Yesterday, another (apparently kitsch) blame-the-victim 'MLM Income Opportunity' racket, 'Mary Kay,' was partially exposed by the US mainstream media.

www.pinktruth.com/2015/09/29/pink-truth-and-mary-kay-on-abcs-2020/

abcnews.go.com/2020/video/women-left-mary-kay-disappointed-34216650

Like all 'MLM' scams, 'Mary Kay Cosmetics' has been hiding effectively 100% loss/churn rates, because it has had no significant, or sustainable, source of revenue other than its own constantly-churning losing participants - all of whom have been arbitrarily defined as 'Independent Business Owners'.

In reality, millions of 'Mary Kay' victims around the world (just like those of approximately 1400 other legally-registered US-based 'MLM' rackets) have been, and continue to be, duped into buying infinite shares of their own finite money.

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Eyespying · 03/10/2015 08:31

abcnews.go.com/2020/video/business-mary-kay-34216449

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Eyespying · 03/10/2015 09:57

mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.fr/2015/10/abc-news-investigates-mary-kay-mlm.html

The pink Cadillacs keep changing, but the 'million dollar annual income / Mary Kay/ American Dream' fairy story has remained the same for more than 50 years.

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stopfaffing · 03/10/2015 11:56

I had a look at the pink truth article about the 20/20 programme about Mary Key mlm. I'd love to see it, but what's really illuminating is the comments at the end of the article . They mirror exactly the same thoughts and opinions we on MN have as regards the evils of MLMs generally. There's a lot of angry people out there, and I believe it's a matter of time before MLMs implode as pyramid schemes did (replaced by something else though, probably).

Eyespying · 03/10/2015 12:26

stopfaffing Doesn't the link work for you?

abcnews.go.com/2020/video/women-left-mary-kay-disappointed-34216650

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stopfaffing · 03/10/2015 12:34

I thought it was another article, Eye Grin and, as I was on my phone at the time decided to read it later on my laptop where it's much easier to read. Didn't realise it was the actual programme. I look forward to watching it this afternoon. Smile

Eyespying · 03/10/2015 13:33

stopfaffing Of particular interest for you in the programme - the common-sense questions posed by the ABC journalist were evidently supplied by Tracy Coenen, the author of Pink Truth, who is a qualified US accountant.

In almost all cases, journalists never challenge the scripted 'income' claims of smiling 'MLM' adherents, but when three, pink Cadillac-owning 'Mary Kay' shills were challenged on 'ABC 20 20' as to what their net-incomes have actually been, suddenly, they were unable to say, and their smiles slipped.

Hidden ABC cameras revealed that recuiters habitually lie by pretending that anyone can quickly earn thousands of dollars per month out of 'Mary Kay,' but when confronted with this damning-evidence, the 'Mary Kay' Ministry of Truth regurgitated the standard chapter of the 'MLM' closed-logic fairy story, and steadfastly pretended that such exaggerated income claims are against the organization's rules and are, therefore, the fault of weak indviduals within the organization, not the organization itself.

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stopfaffing · 03/10/2015 15:09

Just watched the programme and my favourite part is when the women were asked about their income; suddenly (after being enthusiastic and expansive about MK) they became coy and would not give a figure at all. Illuminating Hmm. Do they not file tax returns?

lastuseraccount123 · 03/10/2015 16:33

i'm so happy pink truth is finally getting some traction. wahoo!

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