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'FL / MLM' Thread 3

648 replies

Eyespying · 12/08/2015 08:43

Continuing the valuable discussion of 'Forever Living' and other 'MLM/commercial' cults.

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Eyespying · 12/10/2015 09:47

Why have there been so few complaints againsts 'MLM' rackets?

'The biggest and most effective scams ever created.'

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ambler21 · 12/10/2015 12:19

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mobiusgeek · 12/10/2015 16:07

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Eyespying · 12/10/2015 16:21

ambler21 Correct me if I'm wrong, but (without digging deeper) isn't this 'Pay It4ward Ltd.,' legally registered as a privately-owned limited-liability commercial company, rather than a 'non-profit-making association?'

Behind its sickly-sweet 'philanthropic' exterior, inside this poisonous corporate structure will be a means to locate persons genuinely wanting to help others, in order to mirror their existing beliefs and instinctual desires and, thus, try to lure them into 'MLM' de facto slavery - whilst giving them the illusion they are making a free-choice.

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ambler21 · 12/10/2015 16:52

mobiusgeek Ol'Jafar indeed :)
She doesn't mention Fl in the bio but does have a button at the bottom of it linking to her website, as does O'connor, which in turn leads to the 'exciting business opportunity' #sacktheboss.
In fairness this site is obviously unfinished, it may not have even been approved yet but its live and as such is in the public arena.
It will be interesting to see how it ends up looking because at the moment it just seems a convenient way to link their images with words like 'cure' and 'join us' but these are again common advertising tactics and would be well known to a practitioner of neuro linguistic programming.
The accountancy side baffles me as much as you mobius. I guess that companies numbers do not necessarily reflect her total financial situation. I do know that net worth is basically what you would be left with if you sold all assets and paid all debts (for that company). Maybe someone can clarify?

ambler21 · 12/10/2015 17:16

Those are my thoughts yes Eye but I have too little knowledge to comment properly other than what I see as a lay person. Which is 'Pay It 4ward Limited' exists, 'Pay It Forward-Global' the Non-Profit Organisation as it appears in the unfinished website text I cannot find.
This could all change of course once the site is finished.....

Eyespying · 12/10/2015 17:39

ambler21 I also wonder who else is behind this corporate structure?

When the Hollywood movie, 'Pay It Forward,' was released, various 'MLM' racketeers jumped on it (pretending that it was specifically linked their own recruitment activities), but it's unclear if they were breaking copyright.

The book on which the movie is based, is itself far from original - an elaborate modern-day re-working of the ancient 'Golden Rule,' or the 'Ethic of Reciprocity - we are to treat other people as we would wish other people to treat us.

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xenu1 · 12/10/2015 19:24

Another biz-article (from the FT) on Avon and MLMs. Critical and interesting how Avon has moved to the MLM-side (rather than direct selling) and is now caught by whatever residual honesty their old business had...

seekingalpha.com/article/3566276-mlmed-why-avon-is-fading-away?auth_param=174gij:1b1ns7j:32ce71fc33e270978cf866f75d93564a&uprof=45&dr=1

"History and sales data are now showing Avon's demise is largely due to forces related to the MLM model, both those arising from Avon's not fully embracing the model and those inherent to MLM, which Avon did adopt. In trying to become a "good" MLM, Avon revealed that only one MLM species can survive, the fully formed, genetically pure model with its awesome countenance."

Eyespying · 12/10/2015 22:31

xenu1 Perhaps you are aware that, ironically, back in 1989, the directors of 'Avon' were struggling as their traditional, door-to-door, direct selling market was vanishing in the face of supermarkets and discount stores. At that time, they found themselves fighting tooth and claw to keep their company's good name out of the clutches of the 'Amway MLM' racketeers/

www.nytimes.com/1989/05/11/business/avon-offer-is-official-amway-bids-39-a-share.html

www.nytimes.com/1989/05/18/business/amway-withdraws-avon-offer.html

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xenu1 · 13/10/2015 09:16

eyespying, thx for links!

Eyespying · 13/10/2015 10:23

xenu1 - Please note, I have been re-posting Robert's Seeking Alpha articles on my Blog, because, for some strange reason, the usual alerts have lately not been sent to the 10 000+ SA members who follow the 'Herbalife/MLM' saga.

mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.fr/2015/10/robert-fitzpatricks-comparison-of-avon.html

Robert's own analysis of the 'MLM' phenomenon is increasingly coming into agreement with my own analysis - as merely the latest reality-inverting camouflage for the age-old problem of totalistic criminogenic cultism. To many observers (particularly journalists) 'Avon's' appearance in the midst of more-obviously dangerous groups (like 'Amway', 'NuSkin', 'Forever Living' and 'Herbalife') has confused the issue, when (in truth) the 'Avon' example actually clarifies it.

Perhaps the most significant fact in Robert's article, is 'Avon's' recent withdrawal from so-called 'Direct Selling Associations.' This US-controlled labyrinth of corporate structures has effectively become an organised crime syndicate.

Robert's evidence-based analysis of 'Avon,' is easily the most comprehensive and accurate. This is a long-time-failing traditional 'direct selling' company, eclipsed by social changes, and resulting trends.

In its death throws, 'Avon' desperately sought to survive by partially adopting the so-called 'MLM' model, but without adopting the related advance fee frauds and totalistic thought reform programs.

In other words, 'Avon' proves that taditional 'direct selling' (or what used to be known as door-to-door peddling) has had its day, and cannot survive in the USA and elsewhere, no matter how it is dressed up.

Robert rightly compares 'Avon' to once-iconic enterprises like Kodak and the publishers of traditional Encyclopedias.

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Eyespying · 15/10/2015 19:33

Yet another confused, and potentially dangerous, mainstream media article (disguised as objective journalism) has appeared on the subject of 'MLM.'

www.huffingtonpost.com/julie-zack-yaste/no-i-do-not-want-to-hear-_b_8282844.html

Although the author starts out with her critical and evaluative faculties apparently functioning, by the end of the article, some of her secondhand anecdotal statements are truly laughable:

__

In the course of writing this article, a friend of mine played devil's advocate, because she is a rep in an MLM, and knows others who are successful at it. She pointed out that some companies are legitimate, and can actually help people make a profit. This is true. I would be errant to say that all MLM's are terrible pyramid schemes that deprive people of money while promising riches. Every company is different, and sometimes the structure doesn't place as strong of an emphasis on recruiting. And for some people, that message after years without speaking can provide a vital financial lifeline.

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Eyespying · 16/10/2015 11:03

Since posting Robert FitzPatrick's article in which he offered a comparison of 'Mary Kay' with 'Avon,' I've been bombarded with questions about whether 'Avon' has become a cult and a fraud?

In answer to these enquiries, I have now posted an introduction to Robert's article

mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.fr/2015/10/robert-fitzpatricks-comparison-of-avon.html

Although 'Avon' has not been as overtly cultic as 'Mary Kay,' whilst reading Robert FitzPatrick's article, bear in mind that 'Avon' has lately exhibited some of the identifying characteristics of a 'MLM income opportunity' cultic racket.

The key-information which 'Avon's' bosses haven't publicly disclosed since the company began offering a so-called 'MLM Income/Business Opportunity,' concerns:

  • the overall number of individuals who have signed take-it-or-leave-it 'MLM Distributor' contracts with 'Avon.'
  • how many of these non-salaried commission agents (arbitrarily defined in their contracts as 'MLM Distributors' or 'Business Owners') have remained active in 'Avon' for more than; 1 year, 3 years, 5 years, etc.
  • how many of 'Avon's' constantly-churning army of non-salaried commission agents have actually generated an overall net-profit from their so-called 'MLM Distributorships/Businesses' via their regularly retailing 'Avon' merchandise to members of the general public (based on value and demand).
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spababe · 17/10/2015 13:16

I have been conctacted by a friend who wants to meet up with me to see what I think about an amazing opportunity. I know it is a MLM scam thing and something to do with 25% discount on buying stuff including gas/electric. Now I'm very consumer savvy and do my own discounts etc and have told her this. She sounds like she is reading from a script. I have agreed to meet her for coffee to discucss it but what I intend is to see what she has got herself into and to try to get her out of it pronto. On no account am I joining in this rubbish. Anyway has anyone heard of such a scheme as I'd like to know what I am dealing with and have some facts to present to her before I meet up? If she persists with the speil I shall have to be rude as so far she has refused to take no for an answer. Very difficult as we still have to see each other at mutual events.

xenu1 · 17/10/2015 13:32

spababe: I would bet its "Utility Warehouse". An mlm-style organisation:
www.theguardian.com/money/2009/dec/05/utility-warehouse-telecom-plus-distributor
It'll cost you £200 sign-up, waived if you recruit others...

Eyespying · 17/10/2015 14:00

spababe This might also be the particularly-gruesome 'MLM' racket known as 'ACN' which US Presidential-hopeful, Donald Trump, now claims he knows vitually nothing about (even though, for several years, he's been enthusiastically promoting it in return for millions of stolen dollars).

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Eyespying · 18/10/2015 12:03

www.bbc.com/news/technology-34565631

Amazon is taking legal action against more than 1,000 people it says have posted fake reviews on its website.
The US online retail giant has filed a lawsuit in Seattle, Washington.
It says its brand reputation is being damaged by "false, misleading and inauthentic" reviews paid for by sellers seeking to improve the appeal of their products.
It comes after Amazon sued a number of websites in April for selling fake reviews.
Amazon says the 1,114 defendants, termed "John Does" as the company does not yet know their real names, offer a false review service for as little as $5 (£3.24) on the website Fiverr.com, with most promising five-star reviews for a seller's products.
"While small in number, these reviews can significantly undermine the trust that consumers and the vast majority of sellers and manufacturers place in Amazon, which in turn tarnishes Amazon's brand," the technology giant said in its complaint, which was filed on Friday.
Amazon said it had conducted an investigation, which included purchasing fake customer reviews on Fiverr from people who promised five-star ratings and offered to allow purchasers to write reviews.
It said it had observed fake review sellers attempting to avoid detection by using multiple accounts from unique IP addresses.
Amazon said the lawsuit was not targeting Fiverr, which is not a defendant in the complaint. Fiverr said it was working with Amazon to resolve the issue.
"Amazon is bringing this action to protect its customers from this misconduct, by stopping defendants and uprooting the ecosystem in which they participate," the lawsuit says.
Anyone, whether they are a customer or not, has the ability to review products sold on Amazon's online store, but the rules of the site forbid paid-for or fictional reviews.

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I wonder what attitude Amazon's attorneys will take to 'MLM' rackets, because in organizations like 'FLP,' the (apparently independent) 'customers' have also been the 'distributors.'

www.amazon.co.uk/Aloe-Vera-Forever-Living-Gel/dp/B007U4Q1WU

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knickernicker · 19/10/2015 19:23

Posted on a Juice Plus person's Facebook page.

'FL / MLM' Thread 3
stopfaffing · 19/10/2015 20:50

knickerr bloody 'ell, that's outrageous! and criminal?

Found an interesting web page written by a couple who were deeply enmeshed in an MLM called Nikken. They finally saw the light and got out, leaving a detailed letter explaining how this particular MLM worked.

www.mlmwatch.org/04C/Nikken/letter.html

The mlmwatch site is interesting too.

stopfaffing · 19/10/2015 20:54

Here's another good site, pretty up to date too...

www.mlm-thetruth.com/

Eyespying · 21/10/2015 09:36

knickernicker Encouraging potential victims of the 'MLM' lie to apply for the Jobseeker's Allowance, is par for the course.

One of the problems which has faced 'MLM' racketeers, is how do you steal from persons who don't have money? Their solution has been to persuade potential victims to beg, steal or borrow money.

In the USA and elsewhere, 'MLM' recruits have been widely encouraged to go to micro-finance institutions like Grameen Bank.

mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.fr/2012_12_01_archive.html

online.barrons.com/article/SB50001424053111904370004577390241476503930.html#articleTabs_article%3D1

It has recently been reported that certain well-informed staff in the offices of Grameen America have finally applied common-sense and begun openly-warning potentially-vulnerable clients to avoid 'Multi-Level Marketing Income Opportunities' in general, and 'Herbalife' in particular. However, it was already a matter of public knowledge that a significant number of poor people around the world have been obtaining money from micro-finance institutions (like the Grameen Bank), but then progressively handing their borrowed-cash (which was intended to assist them is starting their own economically-viable, lawful business activities) to 'MLM' racketeers in the deluded belief that, by doing so, they would achieve financial independence. At the present time, due to a lack of full-disclosure by the senior officers of the micro-finance institutions concerned, it is impossible to determine exactly how much cash has been stolen in this way. One thing, however, is certain, this is a growing problem and one which has alarming parallels with the toxic-debt/liar-loans scandal - deliberately hidden for years, before it triggered the current world economic crisis. Anyone looking at this problem with fully-functioning critical faculties, should be able immediately to deduce that micro-finance institutions, in their present (opaque, let's trust everyone) form, could almost have been instigated for, or by, 'MLM Prosperity Gospel' racketeers. It is, therefore, supremely ironic that a recent initiative which has been universally-acclaimed as a means of escaping the poverty trap, has already been so widely-subverted by fabulously-wealthy thieves. However, had it been clearly-understood how cults function (via the manipulation of the existing beliefs and instinctual desires of their adherents), then their infiltration of micro-finance institutions could easily have been foreseen and prevented.

Decades ago (faced with investigation and media exposure), in order to continue to function, 'MLM' racketeers were obliged to hunt outside of the USA for fresh, ill-informed victims to deceive and exploit. For a while, this endless-chain recruitment fraud only infected developed countries, because victims need access to money to play the self-gratifying 'MLM' game of make-believe. However, parasitic groups, like 'Forever Living', 'Amway', 'Herbalife,' etc., are now able to feed off developing countries (where the average citizen has neither cash nor credit), because micro-finance institutions have conveniently provided otherwise-destitute people with sufficient cash.

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Eyespying · 23/10/2015 09:42

This latest tragicomic news from Australia perhaps explains why law enforcement agencies have been so reluctant to tackle 'Income Opportunity' cultic racketeers.

www.news.com.au/finance/business/lyoness-pyramid-scheme-case-thrown-out/story-fnu2q2e9-1227580170737

A mountain of evidence proves that 'Lyoness' is an extremely dangerous Austrian-based blame the victim cult, which has been churning victims all around the globe, but classically, the persons who prosecuted this Australian case, only presented a tiny part of what they have started to uncover.

In effect, the judge in this case (Justice Flick) brought by an Australian Consumer protection agency, has thrown up his hands and lamely admitted that even he can't understand what has been offered by 'Lyoness'. All the same, Judge Flick decided that the 'Lyoness opportunity,' has apparently exhibited the characteristics of a pyramid scheme, but he has decided to allow it to continue, because although rewards were on dependent on recruiting more and more participants, they were also dependent on the participants buying more and more products.

So if this Judge can't understand what 'Lyoness' offers, what chance have victims?

The one common-sense question which no one (least of all himself) seems to have asked Judge Flick, was:

What would be your reaction if a member of you own family came to you and said that he/she had signed up with 'Lyoness?'

MN members should watch 25 minutes into this Canadian 'Dragons Den' linked-video to see just what Judge Flick has apparently failed to recognise, let alone stop.

vimeo.com/66318039

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