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I've been sucked into forever living!! Why do I feel like the bad guy?

999 replies

KindergartenKop · 03/06/2015 20:27

Recently an acquaintance emailed me to ask if I could 'help' her by trying a few products and giving her some feedback. Being the nice person I am I agreed. When the bag of samples turned up the penny dropped and i realised that she's trying to sell them to me (I'm naive I know!). I thought id just buy a little bubble bath. Its fucking 14 quid! No way. I'm sending the bag back and pleading eczema. Does this whole company operate by guilting friends and family into purchasing crap quality at ridic prices?

OP posts:
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Eyespying · 30/06/2015 23:06

throwingpebbles - As to the exact part of the Companies Act covering government agents - each time I asked DTI officials to speak with members of my family and warn them about 'Amway', I was specifically told that they, and other civil servants, were prevented by the Companies Act from doing so. I was directed to parts of the Act which deal with companies under investigation and under potential threat of closure. Agents of the insolvency service always say that they are prevented from disclosing any UK registered company to be under investigation.

throwingpebbles · 30/06/2015 23:08

Yes that would sound plausible, they wouldn't be allowed to "tip off" as it were in those specific circumstances. But you were speaking more generally which is what surprised me

Eyespying · 30/06/2015 23:20

throwingpebbles - You will probably find reference to these rules on the insolvency service's website. I believe this agency is now under the Ministry of Business Enterprise and Regulatory Reform, although they keep changing the name.

What I would suggest you do, is try to telephone the UK insolvency service and get to speak to an agent of the Companies Investigation Branch. I will confidently predict that without the name of an agent, or agent's individual telephone number, you won't succeed.

Eyespying · 30/06/2015 23:28

throwingpebbles - That's it, CIB is Business Innovation and Skills, and no longer Business Enterprise and Regulatory Reform. Personally, I tend to get all these ministry names wrong, because they are of little importance.

Melonfool · 30/06/2015 23:50

I also regularly refer to the Companies Act for work and had to study it for my law degree.

Whilst I can understand the frustration re Amway and wanting warnings I actually agree it would be wholly inappropriate for civil servants to go round warning people about companies. If companies are doing something wrong the investigation should be fair and unbiased and allowed to follow the legal process without judgement from civil servants.

The problem here is not that civil servants can't warn people, it's that no one is looking into it or if they do the MLM lawyers seem to have more clout.
Amway simply shut down a whole load of operations when they were investigated and said the branches had been doing their own thing. They are very careful not to allow the illegal parts to be in the public domain. Though the Internet is obviously working both ways for them!

Bambambini · 01/07/2015 00:52

Don't they realise they come across as some weird, creepy, Stepford Wife replicant? All spouting and boasting the same cringey crap, every single one. It's as though aliens have abducted them and replaced them with a hive mindset a la Borg type entity.

throwingpebbles · 01/07/2015 00:55

The warnings don't need to come from public officials though do they?

Dont most people get their advice from a variety of sources?

Agree it would be good to find ways to highlight the issue and start some impetus for more investigation and regulation

throwingpebbles · 01/07/2015 01:11

Got insomnia and been having a good old nosey around some flbot pages...,

Some if my favourites (!)...

  • a big inspirational quote full of excitement about their "promotion" and then casually mentioning at the end "oh and also sadly my darling grandad passed away this week"

-"it's my 30th this week but I already have anything I coukd possibly want so why not treat yourself with the money you would have spent on me and buy yourself something from my online forever living shop......"

w.t.f???

lazycoo · 01/07/2015 06:39

WTF? Talk about brainwashed. Nobody thinks that's a normal way to behave until these people get hold of them, surely?! Yeah I might like that FB page throwing for sheer comedy value, and don't worry, I'll do my best to hold you back if you get suckered

Eyespying · 01/07/2015 08:20

Melonfool - At the risk of overwhelming MN members, but this is the briefest expantion I can give:

What regulators have almost universally failed to deduce is that 'MLM' racketeers have used the fact that they have not been investigated rigorously and closed down, as evidence that their 'income opportunities' must be viable and lawful.

In other words, the ignorance and resulting silence of regulators on the subject of 'MLM' has become a license to commit fraud, making the regulators a significant part of the problem, not the solution to it.

Yet, if UK legislators and regulators had had a deep understanding of 'MLM income opportunity' cultism, the 'MLM' front-companies would never have been allowed to be registered in the UK in the first place, and clear warnngs would have been issued to protect the public.

Let's face it, UK regulators are supposed to work for the UK public, not for US-based racketeers.

As soon as 'Amway' was allowed to continue 'trading' in the UK, its propaganda machine went into overdrive in countries like India, boasting that the company had been given a completely clean bill of health by the British government.

In reality, some senior British government officials knew how the 'Amway' racket had been functioning (only because it had been fully explained to them for free), but they only presented part of what they knew to a judge in a public interest civil bankruptcy petition. It's perfectly obvious from the judgement that was given, that Mr Justice Norris realized that 'Amway' was a running something very dubious, but which he didn't fully understand. Remember, 'Amway UK' had itself never declared a trading profit in 34 years, but around a billion dollars had been stolen via the allied advance fee fraud. Instead of applying common sense and ruling that if he didn't fully understand what lurked behind 'Amway,' what chance had the public, the judge (in ignorance of reality) ruled that 'Amway UK Ltd' didn't appear to be making much money and had voluntarily agreed to reform its activities. Therefore, the company could continue without any penalty.

It was a bit like catching one of team of burglars and putting him on trial, but the judge saying; we'll let him go without punishment, because he's not received much of the loot and, anyway, he's promised not to do it again.

I had been given assurances by senior officials that the SFO would be brought in only after 'Amway UK Ltd.' was closed, but this never happened.

Remember, 'Amway' voluntarily paid VAT on all internal transactions between itself and its 'distributors' in the UK, making it appear that these transactions were lawful 'retail sales' (based on value and demand) rather than unlawful losing investment payments (based on the false expectation of future reward) laundered as 'retail sales.' The UK government was, therefore, implicated in the 'Amway' fraud itself having received millions of pounds of tax payments derived from unlawful transactions.

Technical UK legislation has not been sufficiently well written to identify, and ban, this sophisticated version of a dissimulated closed-market swindle.

US regulators have issued general warning after general warning about 'business opporunity frauds'. Some 'MPLM' frauds have even been closed down, but this has again implied that some 'MLM income opportunities' are perfectly viable and lawful.

Remember, numerous legally-qualified US regulators have gone to work for law firms that have represented 'MLM' racketeers. Currently a former FTC Commissioner, Pamela Jones Harbour, is working for 'Herbalife.'

Eyespying · 01/07/2015 09:18

throwingpebbles At the risk of being accused of giving you another history lesson:

The ammount of stolen cash that US-based 'MLM'racketeers have poured into 'lobbying' in Europe, is quite staggering.

mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.fr/2014/10/the-tobacco-industry-uses-same-tactics.html

The document linked below was produced by a syndicate of American 'MLM racketeers,' but submitted to the European Commission by their de facto criminal associates in the so-called 'World Federation Of Direct Selling Associations.'

www.wfdsa.org/legal_reg/index.cfm?fa=euTestimony

The 'WFDSA' document was produced in response to a 1999 report (Door to Door Selling - Pyramid Selling - MultiLevel Marketing Contract No. A0/7050/98/00156) compiled by a team of highly-paid European 'legal experts' led by Prof. Hans Micklitz.

ec.europa.eu/dgs/health_consumer/library/surveys/sur10_02.pdf

The Micklitz report cost a fortune to produce (no one can tell me exactly how much), but it is fundamentally flawed, because the entire document was based on a conveniently-inaccurate 'definition of direct selling' which came from the de facto criminal associates of American racketeers at the so-called the 'WFDSA.'

I have spoken to Hans Micklitz about these serious matters and (in an unguarded moment) he made a remarkably frank confession to me regarding his true level of understanding of 'MLM.' Obviously, Micklitz wasn't going to tell the European Commisioners that he was 'overwhelmed and confused' and that he didn't have the beginnings of clue what lurks behind 'MLM,' because he wouldn't have got paid.

When I asked Micklitz:

Hans, hand on heart, what would be your own reaction if a member of your family, particularly one of your children, suddenly announced that he/she had signed up for an 'MLM income opportunity?'

he refused to answer, and abruptly ended the conversation.

throwingpebbles · 01/07/2015 09:34

Haha lazycoo I give it a week before you start trying to flog the stuff Grin GrinGrin

throwingpebbles · 01/07/2015 09:36

It's all very interesting eyespying but I do think you are distracting from a more practical option this thread could discuss, which is finding ways to raise awareness among individuals of the risks to consider before they get involved in something like this

mortil2 · 01/07/2015 09:59

please eyespying ......
I think we have all the links we need at the moment.
Would it be better to have two different threads?

throwingpebbles · 01/07/2015 10:10

Eyespying, unfortunately this thread was being read by lots of people and lots of participation and sadly I think you have sort of "killed" the thread a bit with your rather long posts
mortil yes maybe we could have a new awareness raising / experience sharing thread and perhaps about MLMs in general? (Ie not just forever, but also eg juice plus, herbalife etc)

Eyespying · 01/07/2015 10:14

throwingpebbles - Point taken, and I've invited you to contact me directly to avoid my interventions becoming a distraction for other MN members.

Unfortunately, your own debate has ventured into this area and you really should be fully-aware of what you are going to be facing if you try to organize complaint to the authorities.

You will be up against some very powerful and wealthy criminals hiding behind labyrinths of legally-registered corporate structures and who have infiltrated the democratic process and coopted some very convincing opinion makers all over the world.

As ever, these are facts, not theory, but I'm sure you are aware of that.

MarthasHarbour · 01/07/2015 10:18

My FLBot's inspirational quote of today:

'Eeeeekkkkk let's smash this shit!!!'

Hmm WTF Confused

MarthasHarbour · 01/07/2015 10:20

Right then - we only have 150 messages left on this thread so come on folks - lets get back to the light hearted banter.

Wink
SecondRow · 01/07/2015 10:31

On another note, I was on holiday in England recently and I passed a bank in Cambridge city centre - I think it was Barclays - with an "income opportunity" display in the window - pretty sure it was Forever Living. Phone was dead at the time or I would have taken a photo - had been reading this thread before the trip. I was pretty shocked at the legitimacy this implied. Can you just rent window space in a bank for any old crackpot scheme, or worse still, is it a manager/somebody in a position of influence endorsing this?

Anyone else in Cambridge who has seen this?

throwingpebbles · 01/07/2015 10:42

anyone noticed that a lot of the forever bot have a profile picture or similar of themselves wearing a crappy medal/ sash and stood with the same creepy middle aged (balding, a bit orange) man???

MuffMuffTweetAndDave · 01/07/2015 10:55

Yes! Mine does (I have an FB bot as well as an old schoolmate). I wondered who he was but she's not tagged him.

MarthasHarbour · 01/07/2015 10:57

throwingpebbles ah yes that is 'Bob' and they were all taken on success day in London the other week. My FLBot has recently changed hers to this.

Actually i know this because i did an evening of FL stalking. My FLBot seems to know EC the poster girl (welsh ex PC from Manchester). It made me laugh as she was banging on about being stuck in horrendous traffic and having to stay in a 5 hotel to break up the journey - the hotel is down the road from me (granted it is 5) but she can only have gone about 5 miles from the venue to the hotel - seriously high maintenance if you cant cope with 5 miles of heavy traffic Grin

lazycoo · 01/07/2015 11:33

marthas support your friend by turning up with a hammer and enquiring where the FLP is that needs smashing.
throwing lol I'll be starting my Clean9(?) any day now Grin
Right, off to keep smashing shit #conned #wantaredsash

throwingpebbles · 01/07/2015 11:53

Cursing mumsnet for not having a "crying with laughter" emoticon right now Grin

throwingpebbles · 01/07/2015 11:54

"Bob" is very, erm, shiney