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I've been sucked into forever living!! Why do I feel like the bad guy?

999 replies

KindergartenKop · 03/06/2015 20:27

Recently an acquaintance emailed me to ask if I could 'help' her by trying a few products and giving her some feedback. Being the nice person I am I agreed. When the bag of samples turned up the penny dropped and i realised that she's trying to sell them to me (I'm naive I know!). I thought id just buy a little bubble bath. Its fucking 14 quid! No way. I'm sending the bag back and pleading eczema. Does this whole company operate by guilting friends and family into purchasing crap quality at ridic prices?

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Melonfool · 22/06/2015 12:30

I wonder if this is a type of addiction for some people, it seems like it's a form of gambling. No amount of people telling you it's not going to work will make you stop doing it, you will be the 'lucky one', the one who 'works hard enough', the one who 'works the system', the one whose 'belief' will see them through etc.

Of course, with all MLM there is money if you get in first and are at the top - the money from the poor saps lower down paying for their products etc.

Also, if you look at one of the links posted here it shows the % commission, how much goes to the seller, how much to the upline, 2nd upline etc - if you factor all that in it's no wonder the products cost so much retail (and have to be cheap shit in reality).

I also wonder how sustainably sourced all this aloe is, when this FL thing collapses will there be whole villages in Africa left penniless, with a crop they can't sell, having spent out on seeds etc and unable to reuse the land in time for income in that same season?

Summerisle1 · 22/06/2015 12:33

The voice of reason on that particular nm's thread is refreshing. Not that anyone appears to be listening.

But, as always, direct questions are avoided. Someone asks about how to sell the products and offers a couple of examples. Instead of saying "yes, you could sell that way and also this way..." the reply comes back "Lots of ways and your sponsor and upline manager can tell you about them". That's not an answer. That's the classic pyramid/MLM method of sucking people in without giving them the benefit of perfectly reasonable information before they commit themselves. If the products are so good and the business opportunities so fantastic then you'd assume that it'd be the easiest thing in the world to be upfront and honest about them, wouldn't you?

Melonfool · 22/06/2015 12:41

Actually, reading that questionnaire, I also wonder if it's a type of hypnotism.

I understand NLP, I did some as part of my job, it can be useful but at its extreme is a bit dubious. But it's not hypnotism.

I wonder if FL uses some kind of hypnotism - I guess cults do anyway, and it is a cult.

Years ago I went to an Amway presentation (and I did have a few products, they were OK) and I vaguely recall my then bf who had been into Amway but no longer was (and wasn't a millionaire! But who was/is strangely susceptible to things he wants to believe) had a tape in the car he used to listen to. He was always trying to get me to listen to it - it was really BORING.

I am lucky, I am not susceptible to hypnotism (I have had a few experiences of it - one via counselling, a couple at shows/talks) so I guess the presentation and tape didn't work on me but it obviously works on some people.

It reminds me of those mass church things - I went to a Billy Graham thing once, was bored there too. :)

Tokelau · 22/06/2015 12:59

I know someone who got into Utility Warehouse a few years ago. She tried to get me into her 'team' but I hate that sort of thing and said no. To be fair, we signed up with UW (just for the broadband etc. not to become a seller!) and the product itself is ok.

It must have been about 8 years ago. Our DDs did a sport together, and that is how I got to know her. She is a nice person, but I would call her a bit naïve and easily influenced. She has not worked since having children, and they are now all grown up. I think it seemed a good work-from-home option for her, as I don't think she has any qualifications. At first she did all the Facebook things that the FL people do, the pics, how she was going to make millions, living the dream etc. but that has calmed down now. She seemed to fall for all the 'training', all the old-fashioned selling techniques, asking strangers for business, etc. If anyone put anything on FB about wanting to go on holiday, or bills going up, she would always comment with "I can help you with that, get in touch now!". Everyone knew she wanted to recruit them, and avoided her, I'm afraid. She seemed quite brainwashed.

She drives around in a UW mini, which she is hugely proud of, but she pays for it monthly, so it's basically a lease. She does go on all the seminars etc. and puts it all on FB. She is also very into network meetings, empowering women, and stuff like that. I presume that she has to pay to attend these regular meetings.

I don't think she's made a lot of money, but I think she enjoys it because she was bored before, and has made a lot of like-minded friends!

I have to admit that I avoid her now. She is a nice person, but has no shame in trying to recruit me. We took our DDs out for a hot chocolate a few years ago, and as we were standing in the queue, she literally started saying to the woman waiting in front of us, "Are you paying too much for your utility bills? Would you like me to help you reduce them? etc.". I was absolutely mortified, and we haven't been anywhere together since.

Summerisle1 · 22/06/2015 13:15

I always assumed that the people who fell for these schemes were rather naive and easily influenced too. But then I lost a friend to Amway and she was the last person I could have imagined being taken in by all this nonsense. She was bright, clever, funny and also totally irreverent. All round fun to be with in fact. She was educated to Masters level and before she had her dc was a high-earning professional (higher education) who loved her job. And then somehow, Amway got through her front door.

From that point onwards, she had a complete personality change. All her friends were invited round to discuss the fantastic opportunity available to us - as always, the invitation coming without much in the way of detail since "all will be explained when we see you". When we got round there, I thought it was s spoof! Only I couldn't see how my lovely, funny friend could have turned into this weird Amway bot. None of us took up the 'fantastic opportunity' and so she basically just dropped us (clearly we weren't deserving of friendship if we were so closed-minded as to not fall for the charms of Amway) and surrounded herself with cult members. Which is also par for the course since they simply reinforce the rightness of the cause and dissenting voices are not helpful.

SitsOnFence · 22/06/2015 14:32

I now have Younique and FL Facebook friends.

The Younique one is about 2 months in, and mainly posts photos of herself and fairly harmless 'challenges' to buy wear various Younique products. Still very normal in person.

The FL one isn't really a friend at all, just someone I added a few months back when she asked me to Facebook-message her directions to DD's party a message she read but didn't acknowledge, and then didn't bother taking her poor DD to the party Since then she has been brainwashed recruited into FL. It's like watching a car crash in slow motion. Last week I got this:

Hey SitsOnFence, how are you my lovely? Hows the family? I see your updates on my newsfeed and I have been meaning to drop you a quick message. I’m not sure if you are aware but I am a Business Coach now, i help others to set up their own business, just like myself.

Let me know if you would like to know more and I'll send some information over for you to go through xxxx

I barely know her and haven't updated my Facebook feed in about 6 months.

I really want to delete/hide her, but just can't seem to tear my eyes away...

NorbertDentressangle · 22/06/2015 14:47

I've been away for a few days so have only just caught up on my FLbots post-Success Day posts. Jeez, it's a real love fest!

Loads of posts about the awesome/inspirational/motivational/beautiful/energetic people she was blessed with meeting that make her life a better and more vibrant place, all about how blessed and proud she is of her amazing, awesome team (and they're replying that No, actually she is the inspirational one, she is their mentor and it's all about her), lots of "huns" too etc etc .

She then has endless posts about spending time with her amazing husband and family on Father's Day as if to balance it out a bit.

I've also just realised that as well as her facebook page that I've been stalking reading she also has a FL fb page, 2 twitter accounts one in her name one FL one, a website and she regularly posts stuff on her husbands fb page too. It's all different too ie. same old motivational bollocks but different IYSWIM so not just replicated on each account.

How can she have time to do anything whilst posting so prolifically on all those accounts? Confused

Eyespying · 22/06/2015 16:36

This extract comes from 'MLM The American Dream Made Nightmare:'

In 1961 (after many years of field-research, interviewing US servicemen held prisoner during the Korean War), Robert Jay Lifton (b. 1926) published, ‘Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism.’ In this standard, medical text-book, Lifton identified 8 ‘themes’ which, if present in any group, indicate that its members are being subjected to a mixture of social, psychological and physical pressures, designed to produce radical changes in their individual beliefs, attitudes and behaviour.

1). ‘Milieu control’ — the attempted control of everything an individual experiences (i.e. sees, hears, reads, writes and expresses). This includes discouraging subjects from contacting friends and relatives outside the group and undermining trust in exterior sources of information; particularly, the independent media.

2). ‘Personal or mystical manipulation’ — charismatic (psychologically dominant) leaders create a separate environment where specific behaviour is required; leading to group members believing that they have been chosen and that they have a special purpose. Normally group members will insist that they have not been coerced into group membership, and that their new way of life and beliefs are the result of a completely free-choice.

3). ‘Demand for purity’ — everything in life becomes either pure or impure, negative or positive, etc. This builds up a sense of shame and guilt. The idea is promoted that there is no alternative method of thinking or middle way, to that promoted by the group or by those outside it. Everything in life is either good or bad and anything is justified provided the group sanctions it as good.

4). ‘Confession’ — personal weaknesses are admitted to, to demonstrate how group membership can transform an individual. Group members often have to rewrite their personal histories and those of their friends and relatives, denigrating their previous lives and relationships. Other techniques include group members writing personal reports on themselves and others. Outsiders are presented as a threat who will only try to return group members to their former incorrect thinking.

5). ‘Sacred science’ — the belief in an inexplicable power system or secret knowledge, derived from a hierarchy who must be copied and who cannot be challenged. Often the group’s leaders claim to be followers of traditional historical figures (particularly, established political, scientific and religious thinkers). Leaders promote the idea that their own teaching will also benefit the entire world, and it should be spread.

6). ‘Loading the language’ — a separate vocabulary used to bond the group together and short-circuit critical thought processes. This can become second nature within the group, and talking to outsiders can become difficult and embarrassing. Derogatory names, or directly racist terms, are often given to outsiders.

7). ‘Doctrine over persons’ — individual members are taught to alter their own view of themselves before they entered the group. Former attitudes and behaviour must then be re-interpreted as worthless, and/or dangerous, using the new values of the group.

8). ‘Dispensing of existence’ — promotion of the belief that outsiders — particularly, those who disagree with the teaching of the group — are inferior and are doomed. Therefore, they can be manipulated, and/or cheated, and/or dispossessed, and/or destroyed. This is justifiable, because outsiders only represent a danger to salvation.

lastuseraccount123 · 22/06/2015 19:39

it's quite similar to scientology actually. fascinating and creepy stuff.

Jossysgiants · 22/06/2015 19:43

Very interesting and chilling eyespying

MI5agent · 22/06/2015 21:10

I've only just had chance to read the NM thread, really sad state that these honest people want to work and have been sucked in to thinking they're can make £££.

I'm very surprised no one from FL (via NM) has been on this thread to counter argue our opinions too? Perhaps there's too much truth in what we're saying...?

There must be one FLbot who has some answers or wishes to defend their business? As a senior manager of a Company I work for, I'm proud of the Company and would defend it all the way, especially if there were any untruths we've assumed.

It's odd don't you think that not one person wishes to defend their business?

Eyespying · 22/06/2015 21:49

I've been reading 'The American Dream Made Nightmare,' and there are 'Scientologists' involved with 'MLM' cults. It's exactly the same trap: only the bait is slightly different.

Also, a 'Scientologist' called Reed Slatkin ran a Ponzi Scheme which stole hundreds of millions of dollars. He got jailed, but most of the cash vanished in the direction of his 'Church.'

mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.fr/2012/03/reed-elliot-slatkin-while-back-i-was.html

A lot of the cash being stolen by the FLP fraud, is vanishing in the direction of the 'Mormon Church.'

Like all pious Mormons, the owners of FLP hand over 10% of everything they earn before tax, in tythes.

Not surprisingly, the law has been modified in Utah by corrupt Mormon politicians so that MLM frauds haven't been prosecuted.

The State of Utah makes FIFA look honest.

Mormon MLMs have been stealing billions of dollars from millions of people all around the world. Some of the Biggest ones are FLP, NuSkin, USANA, ARIIX and Xango, but there are plenty of others.

Eyespying · 22/06/2015 22:07

This an astonishing personal account of how MLM cults tear families apart.

mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.fr/2014/07/shackled-to-fin-ambot.html

TiedUpWithString · 22/06/2015 23:19

A relative of mine has started up with FL. She's gone froma quite quiet individual to loads of overt FB marketing. So far:

I think I'm in love.
Working from home photos
Pic of the dog with FL products, shampoos etc.
Subtle ones of honey cakes with FL hashtag
Pics of food with FL products in background
Lots of motivational stuff
Tonnes on the Excel day
A visit for an inspirational talk by a doctor and a guru. Pic with white land rover in background etc etc.

I'm waiting for the implosion and hoping her daughter doesn't get sucked in as she's only 20. Also there was a cringey one where she tagged her son during the Excel conf about an inspirational quote. BARF.

lastuseraccount123 · 23/06/2015 02:56

mine is doing a "business presentation" soonish. there's a slight air of desperation about her post - "it'll only be an hour of your time! please let me know if you can come!'. it appears she may have rented an event place to hold it in.

I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand I'm riveted by what looks like impending disaster. On the other hand, I feel sorry for her and kinda want to protect her from herself.

Gah.

TiedUpWithString · 23/06/2015 07:25

There also appears to be a compulsory use of xx and !!!

Bambambini · 23/06/2015 08:28

Netmums FL folk are aware of this thread. Sure one (Violalion) did come to tell us how wrong we are and tell us about all the money she is making.

MarthasHarbour · 23/06/2015 11:09

bambambini that FLBot ventured over onto the other FL thread to 'defend her business'. Half of her posts were deleted by MN for breaching talk guidelines. I didnt see the comments but it was met with lots of [shocked] faces from MNers! I think she got a bit cross Grin

To be honest i wanted to engage and ask some honest non-flaming type questions but she disappeared as quickly as she arrived.

lastuser writes I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand I'm riveted by what looks like impending disaster. On the other hand, I feel sorry for her and kinda want to protect her from herself.

This is how i feel about my FLBot - she is slowly recruiting other family members. They are semi-toxic to start with so i have no chance in arguing my case Sad

Peacheykeen · 23/06/2015 11:11

Ah yes bambini I saw viola on another FL thread bragging about being on 40,000 a year. All the FL bots seem obsessed with telling others their earnings. I know of no other people who talk about their salaries . It's just so weird

MissBattleaxe · 23/06/2015 11:32

I think a lot of the time they're talking about turnover which is entirely different to profit. I also think that FL flatters people by making them "business owners" and "Network Managers".

Eyespying · 23/06/2015 11:52

mlmtheamericandreammadenightmare.blogspot.fr/2013/06/warning-multi-level-marketing-cults-kill.html

Pseudo-scientific mystification. The instigators of pernicious cults seek to overwhelm their adherents emotionally and intellectually by pretending that progressive initiation into their own superior or superhuman knowledge (coupled with total belief in its authenticity and unconditional deference to the authority of its higher initiates) will defeat a negative or adversarial force of impurity and absolute evil, and lead to future, exclusive redemption in some form of secure Utopian existence. By making total belief a prerequisite of redemption,adherents are drawn into a closed-logic trap (i.e. failure to achieve redemption is solely the fault of the individual who didn’t believe totally). Cultic pseudo-science is always essentially the same hypnotic hocus-pocus, but it can be peddled in an infinite variety of forms and combinations (‘spiritual’, ‘medical’, ‘philosophical’, ‘cosmological,’‘extraterrestrial’, ‘political’, ‘racial’, ‘mathematical’, ‘economic’, ‘New-Age’, 'magical', etc.), often with impressive, made-up, technical-sounding names. It is tailored to fit the spirit of the times and to attract a broad range of persons, but especially those open to an exclusive offer of salvation (i.e. the: sick, dissatisfied, bereaved, vanquished, disillusioned, oppressed, lonely, insecure, aimless, etc.). However, at a moment of vulnerability, anyone (no matter what their: age, sex, nationality, state of mental/ physical health, level of education, etc.) can need to believe in a non-rational, cultic pseudo-science. Typically, obedient adherents are granted ego-inflating names, and/or ranks, and/or titles, whilst non-initiates are referred to using derogatory, dehumanizing terms. Although initiation can at first appear to be reasonable and benefits achievable, cultic pseudo-science gradually becomes evermore costly and mystifying. Ultimately, it is completely incomprehensible and its claimed benefits are never quantifiable. The self-righteous euphoria and relentless enthusiasm of cult proselytizers can be highly infectious and deeply misleading. They are invariably convinced that their own salvation also depends on saving others.

LittleMissStubborn · 23/06/2015 12:20

The wages thing confuses me, on one hand FL claims it is not a 'get rich quick' scheme yet someone comes on claiming to earn 40k p.a within 7mths and whilst not rich, it is comparatively given the unskilled nature of the job plus the fact I learn significantly less with a degree and years of experience (albeit with an extended career break)

Eyespying · 23/06/2015 12:45

In order to be earning £40k per year, you'd need to recruit several thousands obedient new distributor/customers, who would all need to recruit several thousands obedient new believers, etc. etc. ad infinitum.

Also, more than half of your new recruits always leave FLP each year.

Furthermore, there is absolutely no guarantee that any MLM will not get suddenly investigated and closed-down as a fraud like Fortune Hi-Tech Marketing.

Summerisle1 · 23/06/2015 12:57

This is orientated towards the USA but for all that, every part of it is absolutely sound and well presented (graphic format) advice on the structure and pitfalls of getting involved with MLMs.

sparechange · 23/06/2015 14:26

eyespying
This is why none of this makes sense.
The FLbots talk about this mythical £40k like it is the pinnicle of human achievement. While I know it is a significant amount, it is a salary fairly easily achievable in lots of other career paths so for each and every one of your friends and acquaintances to be bowled over by it (which is the sole purpose of bragging), you have to have a social circle that is on a low-ish income.

So it makes absolute zero sense that this same social circle is falling over themselves to make purchase after purchase of £20 products they could buy in the supermarket for a fraction of the cost. Even if they were amazing, which they clearly are, no one is going to bankrupt themselves for slightly better skin.

The thing that baffles me the most is that given the hugely obvious flaws in the alleged model, everyone doesn't call bullshit on it straight away...