can my friend's ex husband legally contest her decision to move 300 miles away to be near her family?

[troubledfriend]

Very dear friend , 2 primary school kids separated from husband 2 y ago.

In separation agreement kids live with her. Their dad is half an hour away and sees thm loads. They are reasonably cordial and flexible about it all.

he did initially want residency but she would not let him and .

She is v unhappy and wants to move 300 miles away to be near her family.She is currently in Scotland and wants to move to England

She is dreading telling him.

Could the courts stop her?

Would he have any chance of getting residency if he pursued it through the courts?

I am surprised that people see this as so unusual. I was thinking of this thread earlier and off the top of my head could think of quite a few people who have separated and then one of other parent has moved away (about 50:50 mother/father). The children have done all sorts of combinations of staying with mother or father, or going with one for a while then back with another. I'm not saying its ideal but I don't think its unusual.

FWIW when our family hit tricky times and needed extra support we decided to move near to my parents (especially my mother). She's young (in her 50's) and we often say that we would have struggled without her practical hands on help that she provides on a near daily basis. Other parents might not have provided the same level of support but for us it has been a very big source of support that we would have struggled without. I, for example would not be able to work at all without my Mother nearby. Maybe the OP's friend has the same sort of issues?

I suppose that most of my mates are RAF or ex RAF, and so as a population we are very unlikely to live near or familes.

Mind you, none of DH's brothers live anywhere near his mum! and I don't think that is personal!

It's not ideal, moving away. It's certainly not recommended (I had to talk to various specialists about this when I wrote a piece about kids and divorce last year).

And the kids' entire life is where they currently are. Yes, children move. No, they're not always entirely happy about moving, especially if they are leaving behind one of their parents.

i think moving as a family with both parents is different from moving away from one of your parents when you spend a lot of time with them

it is very difficult

it can only really be sorted by negotiation and with some outside help

My X placed a prohibited steps order on me against me moving. I think I would have won (the judge said if he gave me residency he would let me move) but in the end I decided it was better to fight him on the residency rather than allowing the whole thing to be clouded with moving.

Now if I chose to move I think my X would still try and stop me but he wouldnt stand a chance. I am the only contributor to the kids welfare financially and I would only move if I got a better job elsewhere. Only one of the three kids sees him in any case now so there is no real issue there either.

On the other hand I think I was running away and am glad I stayed even though it nearly killed me. The kids are settled and my youngest would miss her dad.

I sympathise with OP.

People talk blithely about 'a duty to your children' but a mother's number one duty is to be a good mother. Children need good fathers, yes, but most of all they need love, care, routine, fun and encouragement from at least one happy coping parent. If a mother is miserable it's not in her children's best interests. Children would on balance be better off with a happy capable flourishing mother and seeing their father once a month, than with a miserable, resentful mother and seeing their father every weekend.

Sometimes people who haven't been in these shoes do not realise that having the father in the child's life can be at the expense of children's more basic and more fundamental needs.

Don't worry if people judge you OP, quite simply they haven't got a notion how hard it is.

From a slightly different perspective, I can see why the mother might want to move closer to her family. The exh has a girlfriend who wants to be involved in the children's lives - fantastic. The exh also has made it clear that he would have the children on a permanent basis like a shot. The mother is alone and perhaps struggling on a day-to-day basis.

She probably doesn't feel that she can ask her exh to have the children more in case he concludes that she cannot cope and thus puts in an application for residency. If she were nearer to her own family, who would help out and provide a support network, she would not be facing the possibility of losing her children to her exh. She may have persuaded herself that being nearer to their grandparents will be a huge bonus to her children and offset the loss of their dad (e.g. two grandparents = one dad). I don't think we always think logically and totally selflessly in these situations. It's very easy to pontificate on what would be in the best interests of the children when you are not the one facing that choice.

I think there needs to be a bias in favour slightly toward comments by those who have experienced single parenthood here.

There are a lot of us and I daresay most have had emotional or practical help from family. It is not easy being on your own. It isn't all about practical help either. It's having someone there to share things with, someone who loves your children and has an interest in them, and knows them, so that you can make those parental decisions more easily.

Nobody should underestimate that. People who have not 'done it' on their own might have less understanding of the importance.

Back to original question, he can legally challenge if the children are being removed from their habitual domicile.

Habitual domicile is understood to be their address the last year.

I think from Scotland to England would be regarded as a new domicile. So unfortunately he would have grounds to contest.

Do not whatever you do play mental illness. He could win custody.

Cross posted with Green Elizabeth and Freck, there

Wise posts from Elizabeth and Freckle I think. Financial stuff can make a difference too.

Presumably the father is working? Which means he can be all helpful and fatherly in the hours outside work. But not there at all in the times when perhaps she needs the support to work etc.

I have a very involved with the children husband. But he is unable to do anything that aids me to work. His job is too pressured. All that support comes from my mother.

However helpful and hands on the father if he's working the childcare buck will be stopping with the mother. And in those cases having willing grandparents can make a massive difference.

I can't imagine being stuck in one place, unable to get another/better job or move to where I wanted to be just because my ex husband happened to live somewhere. If I ever separated of course I would consider him and the effect moving would have on the children, but it wouldn't be the only factor in any decision.

Without knowing the ins and outs of the situation its impossible to know whether she's being fair or what is in the child's best interests.

I am a lone parent. I have no family support at hand. I don't think that upping sticks and moving is necessarily a good idea

Flllght I agree about the help as well. A hands on grandparent can provide help and support that just can't be recreated by paying people or relying on friends. You can ask them favours you couldn't ask friends.

I am aware you're one of us MB, sad to say.

But perhaps littler children might be more adaptable or amenable to moving, than older ones - who have a more solid grounding in their immediate environment, friends, schools etc.

Just a thought, not sure how relevant.

Just to add that Scotland is another country in the eyes of the English law.

I agree with Freckle though it is hard to judge unless you have been there and the thought of losing my kids made me physically and mentally ill.

I can see that younger children will p[robably adapt to a new school easier than older ones, I'm nit convinced that they will be any better at dealing with the loss of a 'hands on' parent.

However close, a granny isn't the same as a mum, or a grandad a father.

the kids are used to seeing him 'loads'

Seeing him for a weekend once every 2-3 weeks isn't going to be the same for them (or him). It is going to change their relationship with him

No, you are right - they would be losing a lot. Mine have never had hands on fathers and I find it difficult to imagine what that involves.

This is such a hard dilemma.

just one effect on a child of losing a relationship with their father after divorce/separation:

here

this really cannot be underestimated (again, barring situations of abuse, addiction or the chap just fucking off and not wanting FA to do with his kids).

leslaki has expressed very well how my friend feels.

Thank you all for your contributions. the views expressed are fascinating.

I will support my friend in her decision even if in my heart of hearts I think she is doing the wrong thing for the children. It may well be the right thing for her sanity.

ilovemydog thank you for bringing the discussion back to my original question.

In answer to some questions asked :

I am sorry my friend does not think that myself and others provide a sufficient support network . She moved to Scotland against her wishes, to please her then dh about 8 years ago.

She left him.

Her x works shifts

She works part time.

Kids are about 10 and 8

I agree from his point of view the situation completely sucks.

I also worry the move will not make her happier.

I think it was JS Mill who said "ask yourself if you are happy and you cease to be so" The more we try to concentrate on improving our own happiness the more elusive it can be.

TF - your friend is lucky to have you. I hope she is able to talk this through with her XH and family and is able to make the decision that is best for her DC.

I think that the main point is that she needs to talk it through with her XH.
The other point is that she needs to think about herself, she obviously isn't too happy at the moment and needs to ask herself if the move would really change things-her same old problems would probably go with her.
Childcare doesn't come into it because she is just swapping XH for parents.
I would imagine that if she does the move she would have to compensate by letting them go up for long holidays at least 3 times a year-does she want this?

I think it breaches the rights of the father to move children away and I think it's morally wrong. By all means move near family but leave the children with the father in the place they know with their friends and current schools. She needs to think how would I feel if he announced he was going to move with the children 300 miles away.

As people have said above yes he could obtain a prohibited steps order to stop it but in practice they are rarely granted and I suspect she'd have a good change (80%) of fighting that off in court.

I think the law should be changed so that if there are two involved parents and one wants to move away they may not move with the children and the children then move in with the other parent.

I think you are right that as well as causing distress and (yes) damage to the children and their father, the move would not necessarily make her happier. In this sort of situation it is easy to become fixated on a move as the solution.

And I speak as someone who has thought quite a lot about this. dh and I did very nearly split up a couple of months ago. Believe me the thought of going to my parents entered my mind (I am not in the UK so it would have got complicated, though). They have consistently refused to meet or accept dh and would have been delighted - I'd have had all the support I needed.

I was a widow and a single parent. I think fathers are very important and if you have a loving and involved one you shouldn't move 300 miles away-just on the off chance that you might be happier!