can my friend's ex husband legally contest her decision to move 300 miles away to be near her family?

[troubledfriend]

Very dear friend , 2 primary school kids separated from husband 2 y ago.

In separation agreement kids live with her. Their dad is half an hour away and sees thm loads. They are reasonably cordial and flexible about it all.

he did initially want residency but she would not let him and .

She is v unhappy and wants to move 300 miles away to be near her family.She is currently in Scotland and wants to move to England

She is dreading telling him.

Could the courts stop her?

Would he have any chance of getting residency if he pursued it through the courts?

as scotland and england have different judiciary systems, going from scotland to england would entail a leave to remove application if dad opposed it as is technically classed as a move abroad. if she moves without application to court with dad opposing it, he could apply for a hague convention repatriation order and get her back to scotland where she would have to apply for a LTR. most of the family law is the same in the two jurisdictions and the LTR is definately the same, so beware, if she moves without going through the procedures, she will get an LTR in the end but she will destroy any goodwill and will bring a whole heap of grief upon herself. get her to talk to her ex and see if there is any room to compromise/if he would be willing to move also, best to keep everyone involved well informed and try to talk/mediate/compromise than having a hague convention or ltr application to suffer.
and all said and done, the CA1989 does says ''the best interests of the child'' not the parents, but in LTR cases, the 5 items on the checklist are all to do with mothers interests, but if dad has regular and plentiful contact, the kids will suffer moving to england away from dad so its a balance whther mums suffering will be worse than the kids, as the kids could suffer long term buy having thier dad prised away from them. has she thought about asking her family to miove up to scotland? maybe not feasible but another angle to explore possibly?

josie asking family to move to Scotland not an option

I've followed the whole thread and am totally with Abbey, expat and martian on this.

I am [shocked] and that the OP's friend has decided to stealthily move away. I really hope that the father gets to act before the damage is done and that he wins full residency.

I also think that LLGE's view is tarnished by her own experiences which have nothing to do with the father described by the OP and whose friend is in a different set-up to LLGE. I wrote that re Leslaki's post, too and I would like to point it out to you, that the father is not abusive, provides a loving and stable home for the dc, has a supportive partner and his set of parents and friends living in the area his children are being raised and cared for by both parents 50/50.

You don't have to defend yourself why you posted and it's clear that you have been through so much with your ex and clearly know these situations well, but in this particular case your view of the world doesn't apply and you are mispresenting the facts. You may have well commented on another thread as PG said, because your situation doesn't apply here. Not slating your view, just stating the facts.

I'd also like to point out that there's no need to shoot down another poster like lostdad. You sound really bitter, but please don't sneer at other people on here.

As stated before by yerblurt and others: if this was man posting about taking the kids away from the mum without telling her or giving her the chance to negotiate he'd be torn to bits by the mums on here. So much for objective views...

I'd also like to point out that there's no need to shoot down another poster like lostdad.

You sound really bitter, but please don't sneer at other people on here.

--This is addressed to LLEG, just to clarify.

I think that the shocking thing here is that she is going ahead with her plans in secret and will only reveal them when they are well underway. She should have sounded out her XP before she started to think about it.
She seems to think that because she is offering to drive the DCs half way to visit him it will all be OK! There is no mention of how often she proposes doing this; and the other problem is that it can't be too often because DCs of that age do not want to spend hours on a car journey.
The DCs are now 10yrs and 8yrs and are getting past the point where they want to be handed over like parcels. As they get to teenage they are not going to want to spend weeks away from home when they want to do things with friends or go on holiday courses etc. This is not a problem at the moment because they can stay with the father and it doesn't make any difference to seeing friends. Although they have friends in Scotland they can't just slot in and out of these friendships as they visit.
I think that she is effectively planning to cut off the father from a normal relationship. The DCs may well be resentful and be like expatinscotland's friend who has no relationship with the mother as an adult but gets on well with father and step mother.
It would be excusable if she had real reasons for doing it but not when it is purely a selfish desire to be near her parents. It would be interesting to know how much effort she had put into starting a new life. We already know that she has at least one very good friend in Scotland. When she has moved she still has to start the new life, having the prop of her parents may actually hinder her in making an effort.
When you have been a widow of a small boy desperate to have a father, who hero worshipped other DC's fathers you wouldn't throw away a perfectly good one for selfish reasons!

I keep thinking about this - if she has decided to move and it is all arranged without letting her DH know, her DC can't know either. Suddenly, they will be uprooted, leaving their friends, home and Dad behind. In a few weeks they will be starting a new primary school, where their accents will make them stand out. I wouldn't be surprised if they resent their mother in the years to come.

I have been clinically depressed and at that time I behaved in a selfish and unreasonable manner. It does not mean I should not be held accountable for the decisions I made while ill. Part of my getting better involved learning to take responsibility for my own happiness and I guess that it what this mother really needs.

I think that you have it in a nutshell Upwind-she has to take responsibility for her own happiness. She thinking that everything will be better with her parents near. I don't think that it is any help using them as an emotional prop. Once she has moved she has exactly the same problems that she has before, but she can pretend that she isn't lonely because she has her parents.
She has to accept what has happened and move onwards not backwards. (It sounds as if she has a much better friend in Scotland than she will have if she goes back home.)

Bitter is a word that seems to be thrown around very quickly on this thread. I misread LD's post, and on the strength of that, I've been called bitter twice.

I gave LD some advice, asked a question, said I felt for him (which I do). I've conveniently been slotted into the bad guy shoes.

I know the OP's situation is different to mine, but unfortuately for me, I'm in the position to understand how valuable and essential it can be to have ones family nearby. Friends can't offer the same support. Why should they? They have their own lives? And being near your family doesn't mask being lonely or however it was put by another poster, it provides you with the confidence and stability and support to go out and make friends and take park in life around you. But because I have revealed I am single, I am instantly perceived to be bitter . So easy to label me bitter. I am happy, if I were bitter, my children's father who contributes nothing and was physically aggressive would not see them, but he does. I have forgotten a lot and moved on.

I'm leaving this thread now, as deliberately nasty and over simplistic to label me bitter. That's directed mostly at you alexa. I already posted a msg to Paolo'smum, so I'm not going to go over old ground there.

PS I did not shoot down LD, I was telling him he had a good case and I asked him what distance is considered one jurisdiction, that is a very interesting question, crucial to the OP's friend's situation, and to LD's situation.. I would be very interested if somebody could clarify within what distance is regarded as being one jurisdiction.

I did misread LD's post, and made a pop at him, but he came back at me, made a pop at me, we moved on...

Family also cushion you from having to get out and about. Instead of wondering what you can do on a Sunday on your own and forcing yourself to do it, you can spend the day with your parents. If you are fairly shy, like me, it is not necessarily a good thing.

LLGE expresses how my friend feels regards friends and family not being the same

When we were moving house we could have moved anywhere in commuting distance of London but decided for DDs sake we would move at most a 40 minute drive away from her father and my XH - we have shred reidency and he saw a solicitor to advise as to whether he could stop us moving to a different county - they laughed at him as we moved to the county he lived in whereas before we lived in the county he worked in so he would pick her up for contact on the way home from work - we did it for DD to be able to see her dad and because we did not want her spending half her life in the car.

In that respect I think your friend is being incredibly selfish and the father had a right to residency.

Can I paint you a picture of a man who had shared residency of his daughter for her whole life, and who has been there for her 100%. Who had to enforce those rights time and time again through the courts because the mother fought for sole custody and then ignored court orders. Who has jeapordised his whole financial security and career by always putting his daughter first?

Got the picture? Then try to imagine what it was like for him to walk away alone from a departure gate, having packed into that child's suitcase every bit of love he could represent in photos, keepsakes and letters, all because the mother wanted to start a new life overseas near her parents' retirement home.

He broke. Snapped into little pieces. And now his world is full of worrying about weekend visits being cancelled, because the mum knows that it will take years for the court-endorsed visiting arrangements to be properly enforced now she is out of the UK. And his daughter knows not even 10% of it because he doesn't want her to be badly affected by all the bitterness going on. She calls him on the phone full of her new life and making holiday plans with him, that her mum then breaks. And he takes all those calls and falls apart again after every one of them.

and of course, their whole new life is being financed by him.

There are bad dads all over the world but it sure as hell is shit for the good ones who face crap like this. And like Xenia says, the courts are not providing a safety net even for the good dads.

I have no hesitation in being judgemental on the OP's friend, because I know what her XP is about to go through. It sucks.

LLGE: I didn't say you are bitter but rather that you sound it when you read information into the OP's post that simply wasn't there, clearly showing feelings which have accompanied the split from your H. Come on girl, I'd never label a single person as bitter. What's that got to do with the price of fish? We're not in the 50's anymore

I'm really sorry if I hurt you. I didn't mean to pass a personal judgement, but rather a comment on your post.

[offers hand but trembles slightly for fear it might be bitten off]

i keep thinking like mb says that the mother is desperate for her old place she lived and her own parents

and yet she is going to wrench her children away from the only place they have known and their own dad

how much harder for them to cope than for an adult to cope imo

i would have loved to move away from where i live when i split with my exh

but i didnt because it was too disruptive for my kids

i have posted quite often on mn about how i hate the place i have spent years living in but they came first

and even if you do get depressed and think moving is the answer then your children should still come first

moving wont necessarily make things better

sorting out your thinking will

and then the place you live may not seem as bad

Umm I don't think that troubledfriend has anywhere said care is 50/50. If it was then the dad would have no problems getting residency. What she said was that care was flexible, including weekends, some midweek and holidays. dh and I had shared care, three and a half days with him, and three and a half days with me. When I visited the solicitor she was very interested in whether I had them for more hours (we are talking maybe two or three!) in order to be able to say I was the more important parent, as it were. Clearly the dad has a very hands on parenting role, which is great (and I think this move is wrong wrong wrong too), but we should be careful about reading things that aren't there.

I agree zippitippitoes. My dh wanted to move to the States because he thought it would make him happy and the children have a much better life. To me it doesn't actually feel much different (although I would probably prefer to be back in London) but he says he is happy now for the first time in years. Which is great - have to say he doesn't seem much different to me! Interestingly I see the things that aren't good for the kids, and he sees the things that are. It's all about your view point, I guess.

i have been on the other end of this. my dh's ex moved away (not so far tbh but far enough).

they have shared care and control and agreed 60/40 residence in her favour when the youngest was 18months old as it seemed best for the two little ones.

she moved 1 and a half hours drive away (min in good traffic) and made it all but impossible for us to get them to and from school, see their friends etc. we would get them back after school, give them tea and it was bed time. It also killed us financially, with the fuel and me losing work time to collect/drop off.

so what we did was move to the village next to her. She was really mad, my assumption is she'd hoped he'd drop it but he felt it was too important to maintain contact. We spent £20k on moving costs, bigger mortgage, moved our dd to new school, new area away from all our support network who i really really miss, eg if dd is ill and i cant go to work, no one to ask to help out. DH has huge commute now.

and their shared kids were very unsettled for along time. very unhappy, now getting ok.

I'm on antidep and dd has been really really unhappy. but we still think we all need to be on hand for the two dc of my dh.

i think she was selfish as she wanted to be nearer her friends. i understand that but she didnt think about it all round imo. i know it is really really hard but feel that some compromise MUST be made.

oh yes and the whole move was mentioned and then executed within 5 weeks - planned beforehand? I think so. Took us 6 months and we really pushed it.

om, that's wonderful. That' s what I would do if my ex had the children and moved away. I'd move near them. Women who move away with a cunning plan to cut the father out of the children's lives find that a lot harder when he moves near them. If the move means he accepts a drop in salary and she gets less support then tough - it was her decision in the first place.

These cases are never easy. It's like King Solomon in the bible said - sometimes the true parent is the one who says - give my child to the imposter as that is better than cutting the child in two. (And my own problem is an ex who lives near by and hardly sees the children but that's another issue again).

Some women think they own their children and don't regard them as 50% of their father's. Women planning these moves never seem to think what if positions were reversed - would I want him to take the children 300 miles away?

I suspect in this case even if the father did get time to apply to the court in time before the move or applied after he's not likely to get it reversed. In practice possession is 9./10 of the law and court orders against mothers are rarely enforced. The law is in ass.

Until we start jailing mothers who flout contact orders or say if you don't stick to it then the chidlren go to live with the father we will continue to have women week after week messing men around about contact.

Absolutely, Xenia. What this thread has demonstrated is that there is a clear consensus of opinion over the importance of fathers, and the need for children to have a stable, settled life near both parents post-divorce (as long as there hasn't been abuse or violence of course).

I cannot for the life of me understand why the courts seem to take such a one-sided one size fits all approach in favour of the mother, doing nothing, as Xenia say, to reprimand mothers who flout orders.

These cases make me feel terribly sad.

Can any good parent imagine being stopped from seeing their beloved children??? It's too horrid to contemplate and something non res parents face way too often!
As Xenia says why oh why do some parents think they own their children!

Xenia I think judges will continue to be reluctant to jail even the most obstructive resident parents (usually mothers). What I would favour for parents who obstruct a child's relationship with the other parent is a transfer of residence.

Such generalisations being made about "these parents".

It's so easy to theorise from your armchair, but when you've been through something even a little bit similar,,, you see the chinks in the theory.

In my case, although the father protested when I took the children to the only roof over their heads that was offered , he wouldn't put his hand into his pocket to make it possible for me to stay near him. And despite what some posters think, I'm NOT bitter about this. I was upset at the time but now I am resigned to it all, and see that things have worked out.

Xenia, so many of the things that you post so passionately about are perfectly cosidered in theory but much harder in practise when you've no money, or no support, or whatever the spanner in the works may be.

I gave my x the king soloman test if you want to call it that. I suggested to him that he job hunt in my new (English speaking) country but he says his career would go down the pan. In my World, nothing has ever been prioritised over my children.

I feel like the imposter, cos I have nothing left; home, career, friends..... All i have is the knowledge that my children will be well-cared for and brought up in a happy environment and will see their Dad when possible.

I don't like being judged, lumped in with "these parents" I guess, when I know I had no choice.

ps Clockwise is llge. I will namechange again.

"It's so easy to theorise from your armchair, but when you've been through something even a little bit similar,,, you see the chinks in the theory."

But that is the trouble - LLGE you are clearly still raw from your experience and unable to be objective about a case which has some similarities to yours but many differences.

Would you want the juries at criminal trials to be made up of people who had been victims of a similar crime? Anyone with a little imagination can empathise with others, it is possible to understand why this woman wants to move back to her home town without agreeing that it is the right thing to do.