Maintenance, how much is enough?

[Longlongsummer]

I was wondering about maintenance payments. My ex has paid £180 a month for years. I get that it’s based on income, however he’s self employed so doesn’t declare half of it!

I used to have a good job however I decided to take a part time one to be around more for our son. I’m the main carer. So I don’t earn very much at all.

I think that this is very low. As effectively I am still covering over half of my child’s costs, in mortgage, clothes, food etc. My son in total does not cost only £360 a month I can tell you! I’ve added it up to budget better.

I’m sure that there are parents out there coping with less, less money and less maintenance. Why are we? Why aren’t we shouting that it’s not right?

I also pay for all the extra activities that my son does, music lessons, child care when younger, extra tuition. He has some mild learning difficulties and I’ve paid for extra help. I’ve paid for every single penny of everything without receiving any extra and I’m feeling a little sick of being both the main breadwinner and main carer.

I’ve talked with other lone parents, and this seems to be the norm. Mothers paid an amount based on CSA which is based not on what the child needs, but what the Dad earns and is the absolute minimum. And yet every father seems to take that as being ‘doing their fair share’.

And I’ve never complained to Ex. And yet I think, what are we doing as women, by just letting this happen? Why aren’t men paying half of the costs for their kids? Is this really common?

Childminders and nurseries tend to offer care until around 6pm generally. If you were to leave at 5pm (which still raises eyebrows at any decent job), you’d need to be within 60 minutes distance. Realistically this is about 30 minutes when you take into account traffic. And heaven help if there’s an incident because you’re not getting home until 1-2 hours later.

I could only do my previous role due to an on-site nursery and I was often racing across the car park at 6pm with a phone under my ear at nursery closing time, still trying to manage a call. When he went to school, I was often in traffic every evening on the way to pick him up pleading with traffic lights and racing into to collect him at the last moment from after school care. This was a role only 30 minutes from home. Anything further just isn’t possible.

I’m not the only one and recent stats on commuting show that women commute less as they get older. Presumably because someone has to be on hand to get to school.

f you were to leave at 5pm (which still raises eyebrows at any decent job)

Funny because i leave at 5 every day and i have a decent job. My commute is also a 15 min drive.

Maybe you have less choice in jobs but its not impossible to have a career and children.

menorca are you able to stay home or wfh on that?

I was a sahm when married
Now back at work part time, wfh

I earn well but not as much as I could do if I didn't have the children. I am really good at my job but I insist on WFH 1-2 days a week and if i work in London, a 2 hour commute, I leave at 4pm. I am under no illusions that this is career limiting. Sometimes I have no option but to travel and it costs me £10 an hour through Sitters to cover gaps in my existing after school nanny arrangement. My ex H swans about the country as he pleases as, lucky him, childcare for HIS children is not his problem.

I console myself with the fact that my DC are 10 and 12.5 and so in 4 or 5 years time I won't need all the childcare and I will get away with a few extra hours here and there.

@Notopel some really interesting points. Particularly this one:
The ‘cost’ is far more than x amount for food each week etc. the cost of lost earnings, and lost pension.

I didn’t want to go part time. (And this is a total red herring as I’m not asking ex to cover me, I STILL pay over half our sons costs!)

I did it for my child’s welfare and because I’d have to commute. I cannot do the same level job I did before. Sure I could have slung him with a nanny from 7am until 7pm Monday to Friday, and many weekends, to keep up my old job, which was well paid and had a good pension. However as the only parent willing to be RP, our sons needs came at a higher priority for me.

The loss of that runs into thousands and thousands.

The core of this is the child’s needs. And any compromise, financial loss to put those child’s needs first should be equally shared between both parents.

I’m also really impressed with some of the women on here, @DuchessMinnie @Notopel @lovemenorca @DrCoconut and @Missillusioned for your stories on how you are coping. And doing a good job keeping it financially and emotionally together, taking huge losses in careers and yet still keeping those home fires going for your kids, taking the best care of the children.

It’s women like you who give me hope and feel like I’m not alone. It’s quite a struggle and it’s very easy to be bitter. It’s a big burden, and let’s not forget that most main carers have a lot more stress having to be the sole parent too. It’s a lot!

I have written this many times on here but I think the word bitter is used as a gaslighting way to make those us who have been left holding the babies when exes fuck off (and no mine wasn't remotely interested in being the RP) shut up and not complain at the gross unfairness of it. We can't complain or try to show that we are hugely financially disadvantaged because we'll be labelled as bitter or jealous, or not 'over' the end of the marriage. As others have said, it's not just the obvious visible costs but the loss of earning potential. Not only is paid childcare £££ it doesn't always offer the flexibility that some jobs need, eg shift work. My ex and i do the same job but I can't progress and go for promotions and more money because I simply can't commit to the extra time and headspace while raising two children. He can come and go as early or late as he chooses, put in extra hours and take on the more lucrative roles.

@Longlongsummer you are doing a brilliant job too. It's bloody hard being responsible for everything and it really is unfair that if a man (sometimes a woman but almost always a man) wants to walk away he can. And if he takes them out for pizza once a month people will tell him he's a good dad. Keep going- I honestly think our children will work it out one day.

@Angrybird123 I agree completely with you about the use of the word bitter. Almost always used by second wives who resent the maintenance paid to the first family and think the first wife should just get on with things quietly.

There's a thread on here at the minute from a 2nd wife (or partner) who thinks her dps ex is unfairly advantaged because she's living in the former marital home with the kids. She's slagged her off for only working part time now the kids are at school and wants the house sold so her and dp can buy a bigger one than she currently owns. She acknowledges that a 50/50 equity split would leave the RP ex with not enough for a deposit and she and the kids would be in a smaller, rented house, but apparently thats OK because it would be a fair split 🙄

@Longlongsummer thanks. It is true that it seems RPs should be grateful for any scraps the NRP throws their way. My ex earns over 100k per annum. I make no apologies for accepting substantial maintenance from him. He can earn this kind of money because he is free to travel internationally and work non standard hours.

He can do this because I take the hit on my own career. I also work full time, but I can't travel, can't work outside of standard 9-5 hours, have to cover sickness absence etc.

Even his substantial maintenance doesn't cover half of my outgoings, so it couldn't be argued that he's paying to keep me as well as the children. I'm not struggling for money, but I don't see why I should. Why shouldn't my children have nice clothes and nice holidays, just because their father chose to leave? They would if he still lived with us, so I make no apologies for accepting his money, even though the basic food and clothing costs may be lower than he pays.

@angrybird123 is correct about how the word bitter is used. What’s the difference between “bitter” and justifiably aggrieved? Only perspective! Yes, we should all be fighting for a more just situation but the courts gaslight us and shut us up because the costs make it too expensive to argue our case.

The OP is correct about the loss of pension and career prospects. I am also part time but nobody is “subsidising” that except for me. I need the time to be with my kids because my hours full-time are too much to keep things going at home as well as work. Childcare is almost impossible to balance with a high-earning job unless you have some sort of live-in situation and that is both expensive and difficult at times.

Ah right are we on to the "first wives are super strong independent women and practically angels for coping 100% alone and second wives are obviously the devil incarnate as well as all husbands"

Dps ex would have said that. Infact her reccuring statement was "ive brought up 3 children single handedly, always worked, bought my own house and pay my mortgage on my own"

When in reality her house was entirely paid for by dp. He got an 8th of the equity and half that still hasnt been paid. She only started paying the mortgage 2 years after he left. She gets a slab of maintenance every month plus all extras. She actually only started working once her youngest was in junior school and that wasn't FT. Dp was with her since her oldest 2 were quite small so realistically she only brought them up "on her own" for a few short years. And even then she lived with her mum who did a lot for her.

So when i see a blanket "single mums are so strong and husbands are bastards that swan off to mexico with the new gf" i tend to take it with a pinch of salt tbh.

I would argue that the 'strong independent woman' mantra is used against women to shame them into accepting less than they should.

In reality, very few people of either sex are able to bring up children, especially multiple children, without substantial financial or practical help. If the NRP does not provide it, usually the state or the RPs family will need to step in. On this thread we have had tax credits mentioned. In reality that is the state bridging the gap between what the NRP provides and what the children need.

Often single parents require practical help from family members to cover non standard working hours to enable them to earn. Only the wealthy can bring up children without hardship with no external help singlehandedly.

You've all made me think. My kids are now grown up so I'm no longer in the thick of it but raised them both alone from age 2.

I wanted to be RP and have control over all decisions. I wanted to work around the children and do a smaller job. I didn't press for higher maintenance and got £50pw per child.

We didn't struggle day to day. BUT my career took a big hit and I have no pension. The children were ok but I'm fucked and will never be able to retire.

@holidayhelpppp but you are projecting again. None of the LPs on here have described situations like you describe your partner's ex.

That was clearly a dig at me as I have the ex who went swanning off to Mexico last year. And yes, it is grossly unfair. He hasn't had his own children overnight for almost a year, hasn't taken them on holiday for 3 years and does absolutely nothing for them. Am I jealous of him for going to Mexico? Not in the slightest- I would sooner eat my own hand than have a family holiday without my kids. Am I bitter? Yes, I am. Because my children are hurting, because I think he could do better by them, because I have to pick up the pieces of his lack of interest. And because I know that deep down he will regret it.

Please stop being such a twat to us all because you think your DP is doing a great job as NRP. Good for him and you, that's great. Most of us here are struggling to hold it together at work and at home with no support from our DCs' other parent.

Also i think children will effectively one parent are more emotionally needy - at least of that parent. It's very hard to keep your head in the game career wise even when they don't need physical paid for childcare.

@Angrybird123 so so true sadly. How many women are also labelled money grabbing. ‘They’ve got the kids and the money!’ Is the mantra.

We can't complain or try to show that we are hugely financially disadvantaged because we'll be labelled as bitter or jealous, or not 'over' the end of the marriage. As others have said, it's not just the obvious visible costs but the loss of earning potential.

Very poignant. I’ve even protected my son from this, I’ve never mentioned when his Dad has missed maintenance for example. However with some fear I see that he thinks that this is normal. Will he grow up to think Mums just magically cope on their own and that it’s normal for a Dad to just be fun parent? He’s already telling our son to only work in a job he absolutely loves, to not worry about earning money, that look at him he can work part time himself, but afford good holidays with his gf 20 years younger...

maybe I am bitter!

@catspyjamas123 so true about childcare too. Impossible. My career needed me to work some weekends too, and after having to draft in family members, pay their fare to come half way across the country several times, I knew I just couldn’t keep going.

I lost an incredibly good pension. I’m going to spend the last years of my life probably working until I die. It’s quite scary.

@DuchessMinnie wow that sounds really rubbish for your kids, seeing their Dad swan off and yet see him rarely. That is emotionally a big slap in the face for your kids, it’s good that you do feel for them and feel it’s unfair, better than so beaten you feel nothing anymore. I think my Ex keeps quiet now about his holidays. He hasn’t taken DS on any for 3 years either.

@ThighThighOfthigh totally agree. One of the reasons I did go part time as my son just needs more than kids with two involved committed parents. He is more vulnerable. Now a teenager he’s had several issues and I really feel that I need to be around. I also feel more onus on me to ‘make up’ for the gap his father leaves, emotionally too. And then who looks after us?

@Longlongsummer honestly I wish mine would keep his mouth shut about his holidays. The Mexico year was particularly bad because he went in the school holidays and took his gf's DC but not his own. He then had the children for a week at the end of the school hols and put them in a sports club while he went to work all week! They hated it and cried down the phone at me until he asked if he could bring them back early. He just doesn't get it.

He always brings them back a t shirt to show where Daddy has been on holiday

Just also to say I really don’t want to be ‘men bashing’. I have a DP now who is a great father after separation, and his ex thinks he’s fantastic.

However it’s still mainly an issue that protects men and puts down single mothers. I wonder that a combination of feminism (which I support) but which has often said ‘we are okay, we don’t need a man to help’ and misogyny ‘women are bitches’ converge to create a situation where we just take his inequality and ‘suck it up’ silently.

no duchess im not projecting, but having been on the other side of this, I don't just blindly agree with ex wives that all men are bastards, tbh.

From dps ex description of him you would think he was an utter twat, but he isn't, not at all.

I haven't said any of you are lying, but I know for sure some women do.

I didn't make a dig at you at all, but its a great example of how angry you are, and fine be angry that he isn't involved, but his holidays are none of your business and make it look like money is your only motivation, which im sure its not.

as for this
Please stop being such a twat to us all because you think your DP is doing a great job as NRP. Good for him and you, that's great. Most of us here are struggling to hold it together at work and at home with no support from our DCs' other parent

im not being a twat at all, im offering a different perspective. Sorry but how do you know its "most of us" - you don't.

Im sorry you don't have your dcs other parents support, but to essentially tar all divorced men with the same brush is unfair.

Just also to say I really don’t want to be ‘men bashing’

that's exactly what you've been doing