Mum, I don't want to see Dad anymore

[enderwoman]

These are the words that my dd have just said.

Bit of background- I have 3 kids (12,10,7) Dd is the 10 year old. I split from their Dad a year ago. He left to be with OW and was EA.
Ds1 doesn't see ex as he knows that he was EA and is angry with him. Ds2 does not see ex as ex was a lazy dad who did not properly bond. Dd has been seeing ex weekly. Ex saw the boys on Xmas day for 45 minutes because I invited him in when he picked up dd.

Ex and I are neither friendly or acrimonious. We organise gifts for each other from the Judson each other's birthdays/Xmas but don't see each other in person sort of arrangement.

Dd has confessed that she'd rather not see him anymore. Her reasons are
1- ex lives 2 hours away which means being in a car 4 hours per weekend.
2- He's "mean" (I think she means EA) Her examples are that she feels scared to tell him what she wants (like for him to change the channel from Top Gear)
3- Contact time is boring. She doesn't exactly have an amazing time with me but she says that I "do stuff" with her which is what she wants.
4- She feels that she is intruding on ex and ow. Ex and ow have been living together a year.

What do I do? Ex loves the kids but as my 3 dc say he will never love anyone more than himself.(How did they get so smart?) She currently has 2 weekends with me followed by 1 weekend with ex (Fri night to Mon morning) and no mid week contact so it's hardly excessive.

I'm gutted that it's such a mess. Ex FIL is estranged from his 4 kids and we've created another generation who don't want to know their Dad

in theory you would encourage dc to see a parent that is EA and the child is resisting going just incase some thing bad happens to the parent.

Not at all - whether or not contact is safe with an abusive parent is something for the parents and protection agencies to decide.
But, I certainly wouldn't reassure a DC who is resisting contact that they'll always have the chance to see the rejected parent anytime they want to in the future! that is what I have strong views about because of my own experience.

How can the OP be sure that is the case? the DC's Dad may refuse conact in the future, he may (like my DH) experience a life event that changes his personality, or he may die prematurely due to illness or accident.

By all means make the right decision for the DC - but don't make guanratees or promises that you can't keep.

Lostdad,

Can you clarify in what capacity you assist people with this issue?

You've asked me that before Sockreturningpixie!

Why do you ask incidentally?

Because I'm rather interested in the validity of the advice you give.(and that's not an insult at all so don't take it as one).

Several times on threads I've read your advice and IMO and experience it has the bare bones of being correct but there is something always a bit off about it,and I would be interested to know if you are actually qualified in any related capacity or if you have acted as a Mckenzie friend on a few occasions and picked up stuff.

I know I've asked before but as far as I recall you have always declined to answer.

lioninthesun I wish wholeheartedly wish that some one would have given me the chance of group counciling with my db and DM as we still carry issues around with us twenty years later and it would have be good to tell her to her face how she made us feel.

Unfortunately the narc in her wouldn't have accepted any slight on her side.

frogs myself and db choose to go NC with out DM (db refuses to call her mother so calls her by first name)
Growing up wasn't a nice place at home , DM could be cruel physically abusive and emotionally abusive she was also a raging narc. I was able to escape and go live with my df unfortunately db had to wait till he was 16 to leave.
DM has had multiple suiside attempts - I don't know if they were genuine or not , but she is still here so couldn't have tried that hard it's just strange they all coincide with important birthdays with me and db.

I live with the fact that one day she might actually do it and how I feel about it then, I just don't know. But at this moment we can't have contact because she is toxic and that's our choice for now.

You have to live life in the moment and not what could happen.

lostdad mediation is not always the best idea. My friend suffered badly in hers as the ex had an opportunity to belittle and bully her in a closed session away from support.

You have to live life in the moment and not what could happen.

skull I could'nt agree more -that is excatly the ethos DH and I live by following his experience.

BUT - to emphasis my point again, because it seems to have been missed - I am not suggesting that the OP should decide wehther or not her DC's should spend time with their Dad because of what could happen to him.

I am merely disagreeing the poster who advised the OP to tell her DD that "she can always change her mind" if she decides not to see her Dad right now. The OP cannot make that assurance, guarantee or promise. Whether or not the OP's DD sees her Dad is one thing - making promises about what opporunities the DD has the future is something different.

frog I absolutely get your point, it wasn't missed.

The child can always change their mind.

Changing your mind does not mean the same as you will always get to see him again

MUTTENCADET...

Why should children be made to do things they don't want to?

For obvious reasons they have to go to school and brush there teeth etc...

But they don't HAVE to see there father?!

Skullfucker `mediation is not always the best idea'

Oh, I agree. It's not. That's why I say `consider mediation' (and mention shuttle mediation - the link I put in my previous post specifically mentions the implications of DV). The OP knows her situation better than anyone here so she knows if it's an option. Everyone has a right to be safe of course.

I see a lot of people dismiss mediation as an option though before they end up with court. It's worth trying to avoid.

Sockreturningpixie - check my posts. We don't want to hijack the OP's thread!

So you want me to advance search you to work out if advice you are wording as if it is professional actually is,on the thread your giving it. To prevent a derail?

Do you not think the person your advising would be interested?

now derailing would be presenting yourself (how ever unintentional it was) as being in a certain capacity to offer advice based on nothing more than agenda or bias.

Changing your mind does not mean the same as you will always get to see him again

I think the nuance of that would probably be lost on a 10 year old, don't you? I really don't think advising the OP to mislead her DD is a good idea.

Saying "It's OK DD, even if you decide not to see him at the moment, you can always change your mind when you are a bit older" makes a commitment on behalf of the DCs dad that just can't be guaranteed.

It's a free country Sockreturningpixie!

Yes indeed it is, but many members of it could choose to be fair.

I haven't advance searched you but if I haven't mixed you up with another poster (your name also suggests I may be correct) and my memory is doing ok.

Chances are the real reason behind many of your posts could be much more useful,the damage done to your dc with no reason is a much much better deterrent.

A huge amount of the advice given by posters who have an axe to grind but little formal knowledge could be very dangerous.

frog so what would you suggest the op says ?

Nothing in life is guaranteed.

skull I would never, ever speak for, on behalf of or commit the other parent. If the parents decide that the DCs can opt out of contact then that should be treated as a final decision; future contact cannot be guaranteed by either parent so it is foolish to imply or directly promise a child that the decision taken not to see them can be reversed in the future.

It's clear that both parents are allowing contact to be child led - the OP has said that the DCs dad won't take them if they say they don't want to go - but has anyone explained to the DCs that there are a lot of other options between contact as it has been up until now and no contact at all? I would certainly explore the various options with the DCs; supervised contact, indirect, shorter/daytime only to see if there are solutions that they, as DCs, haven't thought of. Of course, if the DCs are still resistant to any contact despite other options being explained, and both parents believe that is right for the DCs, then it is not the place of anyone else to interfere.

frog I don't agree with your first paragraph . I do however agree on the majority of the second however ultimately if the child does still not want contact the mother has to support that.

Although I don't think the df will be that bothered as there are two other siblings he doesn't bother with.

The op posted on here for support.

Crunchy Frog mediation is NEVER advisable with an abusive man. In any circumstances.

Sock people have been asking Lostdad the same question repeatedly on this forum on similar threads for a significant length of time.

Dollyhouse you have it summarised to perfection.

For anyine reading this thread who recognises glimpses if their own Exs and is struggling with child contact issues I can really recommend Lundys book 'Why does he do that? inside the minds of angry and controlling me' It's s really useful resource for developing strategies to manage EA men with regards child contact.

Mediation should not be recommended for people who have suffered EA or DV. Why do people keep giving this advice? All that would do is allow the woman to be manipulated again. Bad advice.

And I include shuttle mediation in that. As if someone still can't try to charm, pressure and manipulate using a messenger!

Spot on dolly

I think when it comes to abusive situations, it is not possible to create an environment which is beneficial to the DCs - the aim to to come up with the solution that is least damaging to the DC's. They have an abusive parent; that cannot be changed - what is important is that the consequences of having an abusive parent are minimised.

It's not as simple as eliminating the abusive parent from the DC's life. The damage caused to DC's by an absent parent (even an abusive parent) is well documented and researched - but that may be the least damaging option when the only alternative is exposure to an abusive, high conflict or manipulative environment. However, I do think that there are a lot of compromises in between that can provide the opportunity of contact for the DC, while minimising the damage through the abusive behaviour.

The reason that many resident parents believe that no contact at all is the least damaging option, rather than seek to compromise through supervised or indirect contact (for instance) is because the damage done when a DC has no relationship with one parent is not immediately apparent.

Often, a previously anxious and unsettled DC will become more relaxed and happy if all contact ceases. However, it is when that DC becomes an adult, enters into relationships themselves, and faces the challenges of parenting their own DC's, that the consequences often come to the surface.

RP are faced with the choice of short-term visible gain by cutting off contact between DC/abusive parent or a long-term hypothetical outcome that is difficult to quantify or even visualise.

I know Monet. But it does point out to the person asking (whilst staying within the talk rules) that despite the impression he try's to convey in his posts he is not quite right.

Some posters when talking about legal stuff make it clear they are either not qualified or when it comes to complicated matters like DV then they may be but generic advice is not appropriate and none anon formal legal support is the best way to go, the ones who don't and doggedly push for contact or imply someone with genuine reason to prevent contact could be rightly punished by a court are dangerous, it could lead to a harmed child,an investigation for failure to protect or a complete breakdown in contact when safer methods could be attempted.

It seems to me that suggesting communication to narrow the differences if safely managed is quite sensible.

Indeed, it may offer the only prospect of a good outcome for this child and the parents.

Think the OP needs advice not dogma