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Lone parents

Use our Single Parent forum to speak to other parents raising a child alone.

Ladies - Add your vote if you think the court system/authorities are failing us and our children

117 replies

Lionessnurturingcubs · 03/08/2013 09:22

Numerous threads on here and elsewhere have indicated that the "Family Law" system in this country is failing us - lone mothers and our children.

This country stigmatises single parent mothers. There is a totally false perception that we are all in our teens, living off the state. WE ARE NOT.

The Gingerbread website has the actual statistics:-
The average age of a single parent is 38.1.

59.2% of us work.
Half had children within marriage. It is safe to assume that a lot more had children within a relationship.

As mothers, we have a natural instinct to protect our children. We have a right to ensure that NO-ONE, even the biological father, has the right to damage them emotionally, physically, or in any other way. This right is being denied us through the 'Family Law' system in this country, which is stacked against the father.

We have had enough. We now want to organise into a coherent group and are considering taking our voice to the European Court of Human Rights. Please add a one liner here, if you agree or support this principle. It does not mean you are committing to anything, we just want to see the wealth of feeling behind this. Please name change if you don't want to give anything away!

OP posts:
Lionessnurturingcubs · 03/08/2013 09:25

Sorry - should say stacked against the mother, towards the father.

I should add that this is not about denying anybody contact with their children, as everyone accuses us of. This is about ensuring that contact is safe, reliable, and not causing any emotional, physical or other damage to our children.

OP posts:
HeySoulSister · 03/08/2013 10:37

As mothers, we have a natural instinct to protect our children. We have a right to ensure that

Is this instinct exclusive to mothers? And is it scientifically proven? Or is it your imaginings?
And what is a mothers right? A parent doesn't have 'rights' merely responsibilities. The 'rights' lie with the child as per the children's act.

Bruthastortoise · 03/08/2013 10:42

My DSC's mum has no natural instinct to protect them, she has done a lot of damage to them emotionally over the years. My DH has been their constant provider, nurturer and protector for years. Why should their mum be afforded more rights by the courts? Is it because she has a womb and DH doesn't?

babyhammock · 03/08/2013 11:12

Ok lets phrase it another way...the law is stacked against against a non abusive parent trying to protect their children from an abusive parent. There is a presumption of contact that often conflicts with the presumption that the welfare of the child is paramount.

lioness you have my vote xx

tomsellecklover · 03/08/2013 12:40

hi lioness you know you have my vote too. been to see mp he is going to email contacts and info on the current situation with campaigns for reform. where in the country are you? I'm in Birmingham.

SnoopyLovesYou · 03/08/2013 12:45

Yes at the moment it's all about the Dads in the court system.

tomsellecklover · 03/08/2013 12:45

ps. understand what you are saying about benefits however I am a single mum 'living off the state' (whatever living is!) but I have no other choice and believe it to be the best thing for my young dd that she has one stable carer in her life (lived in 5 places by age of 18 months) . I could only consider child care when I get my free hours. no bad feelings about this just thought I'd explain my situation.

lostdad · 03/08/2013 17:55

The court system undoubtedly fails children but that applies equally to mothers and fathers. Mothers tend to be the primary carers before separation and the court - which by and large doesn't like to change the status quo - will usually maintain this.

In my work I have seen resident mothers doing their best to prevent children seeing their father. Then again I have seen residence fathers doing exactly the same.

The point I am making is that it isn't a gender issue. Ironically enough I have heard many times of fathers saying EXACTLY the same thing as the OP, albeit reversing the genders.

It's wrong to think it's a gender war. The problem is that the courts are not fit for purpose and as such mothers and fathers should be working together to ensure the best outcome for children instead of fighting each other.

betterthanever · 03/08/2013 18:58

I agree with lostdad that is also fails fathers so yes for me it fails children. But (and stats I will come back to) the vast magority of the time it is the mother who is the primary carer - fact. It will therefore/naturally have predominantley female angles.

I think the campaign should focus on failing children for the simple fact it will carry more weight the fact that mothers are predominantley affected and some fathers will come out in the wash. There are some feminist issues in the system - but hey there are in all aspects of life, whatever people mysoganists try to convince you of, these should also be part of the campaign. I think to make it to too female the mothers are suffering focused would play into the hands of many we really have not got time for.

The impact of the system on the parent/primary carer is important and again will come out in the wash but the focus has to be on the DC.

It is a nice ideal lostdad that parents will work together but if one is using the system for the exact opposite reason and possibility to continue /start to control DC too then that will not happen. Sociaopaths are difficult to spot, years of small things, a court would never get it in a 20 min hearing, I would not expect them too. I agree the system is not fit for purpose - are you with us?

lostdad · 03/08/2013 19:12

You can't take matters straight to the EHCR - you need to work through the British courts first.

So you need to start at a county court that your/your child's human rights have been infringed and if/when they are rejected you then need to appeal to the High Court which will then only succeed when you prove to it that the county court has made an error in law.

And then when the High Court reject your argument you then appeal to the European Court of Human Rights and demonstrate the same thing again. Should you be successful the UK government will be obliged to act to be in compliance.

It would be fair to say that I think this approach is doomed to failure. It would also be fair to say I don't think many people would say the Family Law system in the UK is effective.

I would urge anyone who wants to campaign to contact one of the groups already doing so. They're chronically understaffed and would be grateful for the help - and I would add the caveat that they check what the goals of the organisation are because at the end of the day it is about children...not women or men.

betterthanever · 03/08/2013 19:23

If doomed to failure then why are other organisations trying the same thing? The thing is, each organisation will have thier own agenda, the goal of the organsation as you say has to be looked into.
They Lords and Government are already looking at reform, it is a good time to address issues and though those channels - for me there is too much secrecy (DC's privacy can still be protected with more transapency - my exp has sent personal info about my DS to strangers outside of the court system and the court cared not), there is very little if no accountability and the issues of law and welfare and being blurred. Lawyers are running it, if less cases come to court they get paid less, they want more not less cases - it does no child any good to be inolved in a court case - there needs to be someting else.

Lionessnurturingcubs · 03/08/2013 19:41

Lostdad and Betterthanever - great posts! I agree with Betterthanever though. It is essentially indirect discrimination though - by virtue of tbe fact that most primary carers are mothers, it is us who are 'discriminated' against.

Yes, this IS about the children; however a mother has a natural instinct to protect her children (as seen in the animal world) and we are being denied that. Is that not against OUR human rights? If I sent my kids to a childminder who did some of the things my ex has done, the kids would be taken off me due to neglect. The courts however FORCE me to go against my natural instinct and send them to him. Insane.

So yes, Lostdad absolutely 'Family Law' is not fit for purpose in this country. How we get the ECHR to hear that is our challenge. So as Betterthanever said - you with us?

OP posts:
Lackedpunchesforever · 03/08/2013 20:18

You have my vote. I have a fantastic solicitor and an excellent judge but without them my children would have been handed over to their abusive father a lot sooner if it had been down to social services and court welfare officers. As it is, every instinct in my body is screaming out that I should not allow my children to have a relationship with an abusive man. But the focus has shifted too far towards the rights of abusive, manipulative, relentless, controlling NRPs and after 2 years of him masking his behaviour, I am at the point where it is now inevitable that unsupervised contact will begin again.

betterthanever · 03/08/2013 21:00

lack I am in the `masking behaviour' phase - do courts not think that Jimmy Saville used to hand out gifts on Christmas Day to patients he was abusing the kind soul that he was Angry

tomsellecklover · 03/08/2013 21:05

betterthannever - just DM'd you re- jimmy savile , hope you don't mind. you don't need to reply if you don't want, just didn't want to post publicly about it.

Lionessnurturingcubs · 04/08/2013 07:32

better - you have hit the nail on the head about 'masking behaviour'. Of course that is what manipulative, abusive people do - yet when they get into court they behave as if butter wouldn't melt..and the courts look at us as if we're the ones who are mad!

One of the main problems I see is that the system adopts a "One size fits all" approach. It doesn't work. For example, they are now advocating shared parenting. Great - and for those families who can make shared parenting work, they are already doing it. lostdad - you state that mums and dads should be talking not fighting. Those that can, are. And those parents have probably never seen the inside of a court room, heard of CAFCASS, and probably have no court order.

It's the ones that can't (which usually involves DV) where the problem lies. You simply can't make people talk, especially if the RP has had to previously abandon home, pick up babies and seek refuge. The mother's "protective instinct" is on high alert, rightly so, and yet she is then expected to ignore it and hand them over to her persecutor. It is actually quite barbaric.

Also, we have many cases now where parents are splitting up whilst the mother is pregnant. The NRP may or may not be involved in the early stages of a child's life. Should they get the same "one size treatment"? Shared parenting in many cases where the father disappeared for the early years would be entirely inappropriate, yet there are cases where residency has been granted to such people.

We often hear people say the child has a "right to see both parents". Sadly, in law, they do not. If the NRP decides not to see their children, the court will not force it. Yet the minute that NRP flits back into their life demanding contact, it is immediately granted. Why? Is that not emotionally damaging to the child?

We have a huge problem in this country. We have high single parent families, high unemployment, drug usage, full prisons, etc. Therefore rather than using the meaningless expression of "in the interests of the child", the court should be focusing on POSITIVE OUTCOMES for the children. A child could have a very meaningful relationship with a parent who they see for one hour every day. However, NRPs would not agree to that - they want full overnight access blah, blah. Why? If there is any element of risk whatsoever to the child, be it physical, emotional or otherwise, then surely contact must be restricted until the risk is eliminated?

There are two streams of single parents - the ones that are harmonious and the ones that are acrimonious. The acrimonious ones need help - desperately in order to ensure that our children grow into well-balanced individuals with a chance of getting somewhere in life. At the moment the odds are stacked against them. CAFCASS, Courts etc. need to change their approach or this social problem will only multiply.

Just because a child doesn't have bruises, does not mean he's safe.The emotional damage being done to these children is far more difficult to assess - yet it becomes clear when, God forbid, they turn into adults who are drug users, criminals, socially inept, etc. And yet it can be avoided by allowing the primary carer to do just that - take prime care.

Children are born with two parents. Sadly, sometimes one parent is not suited/able to provide adequate care for them. It is then left to the other parent to provide it and safeguard the child.

The courts should be commending us for doing it, not denying us the right.

OP posts:
tomsellecklover · 04/08/2013 08:59

even the use of contact centers is a way to mask.behaviour to a certain extent, well of course he's going to be as good as gold he knows people are watching! then he gets s gleaming report, what a wonderful father etc in court. as soon as unsupervised access is granted what is there to stop abusive behaviour starting again?

babyhammock · 04/08/2013 09:02

Lioness that was absolutely spot on.

I'd have to add that they don't all behave like butter wouldn't melt in court. Mine was the complete opposite and was actually abusive in court. The court simply made excuses... :(

CatDogAndMouse · 04/08/2013 09:47

What about the resident parent who is using the court system to their advantage? No DV involved. They are so bitter that they will stand in court and just deny access except on their terms. It can be many hearings before the case comes in front of magistrates or a judge. Legal advisers have no powers and cannot make them agree to proper access.

These women (occasionally men) have a lot to answer for as the courts are trying to determine which are genuine concern cases and which are fought to try and destroy the relationship between the DC and the non resident parent.

Thank goodness for CAFCASS and the family court in our case. They saw what was the truth and granted fair access. The RP now tells the DC that the court made them go to the contact centre for months and that she made it so they could go to daddy's. unfortunately for her the records prove these lies and will be available for the DCs If they ever want to read them when they're old enough.

tomsellecklover · 04/08/2013 10:05

catdog - yes unfortunately sometimes this happens too. did they not suggest mediation?

its hard because in cases where DV really is involved often it can be hard.to prove and if the courts always thought that the rp was making it up then it puts kids at risk. its a shame that the system is so inconsistent though and s completely different decision could be made just because of the judge/magistrates you get on the day.

tomsellecklover · 04/08/2013 10:07

baby- seriously? what excuse did they come up with?

yournotfat · 04/08/2013 10:19

The court has a responsibility to the child to ensure that, wherever possible, they have contact and a healthy relationship with both parents. That is a child's right.
When one partner goes to court and says that the other partner should not have contact, for whatever reason, the court has to have proof that this is not just a wild accusation made out of spite. If there is no proof they have no choice but to award equal contact.
Mums would help themselves if they went to the police every time something happened and insisted it was logged.

tomsellecklover · 04/08/2013 10:30

'mums would help themselves if they went to the police' not always that simple I'm afraid, often women don't even realise they are being abused, or if they do are frightened to tell because of the consequences if they did so.
women's aid say it is very rare that a woman will ever lie about being abused without there being truth to it.

lostdad · 04/08/2013 11:16

This is not a gender issue. The moment we start saying men do x' or women do y' we are instantly stereotyping 50% of all parents.

As a McKenzie Friend I have worked with mums and dads and believe me...men and women are just as good/bad as each other. They say the same thing, do the same thing, play the same tricks. It is about good parents and bad parents - not men and women.

I have met mums and dads who would do anything for their kids. I've met mums and dads who will happily put their own kids through hell just to get at their ex.

MissMarplesBloomers · 04/08/2013 11:26

Lostdad of course you are right BUT as Lioness says often the balance of power is with the NRP who also is often(not always) the Dad.

Count me in OP, I have been chuntering on about this for some time seeing the damage and heartbreak some of my friends have gone through.

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