My 11 year old daughter

[wirral]

has decided, since last October, that she wanted to live with her Dad, his girlfriend and her daughter.

I hijacked a previous thread and got such good advice that I thought I'd attempt my own.

I've been so sad since daughter left but am so ashamed that I have failed as a Mum that I haven't asked for advice before.

Daughter came and stayed this weekend. She spent the majority of time surfing internet and emsillng her Dad about which new mobile phone he is going to buy her (blackberry)

Today I tried to get her to do her homework. She needed to write a report on a bag. She and her Dad had decided to write about a designer bag that his girlfriend had bought her (a Kipling??) I don't know about designer bags. I offered to help her but she told me I couldn't as I don't know bag. I suggested she phone her Dad to help her but she refused. She then got angry with me and started being nasty. I phoned her Dad and asked him to come and pick her up. He did.

I am just so lost. Everything that I do is wrong. So sad

Hi Wirral,
I have never posted on a thread before but I've felt compelled to post something tonight as in many ways I've been in a very similar position as your daughter.

I think an extremely crucial element to all of this has been the arrival of your ex's girlfriend, and maybe more so, her daughter as well.It's not to say that she doesn't get along with these two, however, it would be very easy for her to be insecure and jealous about her dad playing a fatherly role to another child, particularly when she is an only child.

Although possibly not the main reason your daughter left, her willingness to stay at her dads could be down to her wanting to 'mark her territory' as it were, saying "look dad, i'm here - you can't forget about me now"

Talking about my experience, when my father left us, oddly enough it was not my dad that I was upset with but my mum. I was angry that she wasn't a better wife to be able to keep ahold of my dad. Now, as an adult I know this wasn't the case as it was because my dad went after every bit of skirt going.

But in my irrational, immature head it was my mum at fault, not my dad. I also know that I had unconditional love from my mum, but was unsure if this was the case with my dad, he had rejected us and left after-all!

Your daughter has been through an awful lot: father leaving her, new family unit being introduced, left (what i presume family home) to live with dad, new school, etc etc and to top it all off i bet she's going through puberty aswell!

My only advice is in similar vein to other posters DO NOT WALK AWAY FROM THIS SITUATION as hard as it is to be strong right now, you've got to try your best for you and your daughter's sake. Keep telling her you love her so much, if she allows give her hugs because although she trying to show you how grown up she is, at the end of the day we all need our mammy.

Press for more regular contact, even if it means you and your daughter only meeting up for lunch. Or what about joining a weekly class together. My mum and I used to go to women's only night at our local swimming baths and it was a great bonding experience.

Obviously with this situation things are never going to get sorted out overnight and in the end there may never be a perfect solution. And no you are not an awful or a failure of a mum, if you were, you wouldn't care and wouldn't be posting on a parenting website until the early hours of the morning.

Aspiringmummy, your post makes so much sense.

here, here!

your tale Wirral, I think reveals you to be emotionally mature about all this, and her father not!

Wise words about DD wanting to 'mark her dad's territory'.

I agree with you Wirral about the untamed wild girl back then that you locked yourself away from. A unified parental approach needed, on the boundary/consequences front. I guess its unlikely to happen now though, which goes back to your very early sensible wish to get mediation to set up a framework for everyone to work happily within.

I hope that your late friday nights chats were helpful to you :)

Braced myself to look at this after late night ramblings after no doubt far too much red wine! Blooming heck, when I started this thread I never expected anyone to be remotely interested and certainly never expected to get such good advice.

Thank you AspiringMummy, I have had similar thoughts myself. In a way I wonder if daughter is so secure with me and a little insecure of her Dad. It is also so interesting when you talk about blaming your Mum. I can see parallels with my daughter in that she has always seemed to feel sorry for her Dad and I have never really understood why. Your comments have really given me food for thought

It is very difficult not to react and turn my back on her - this is the most pain that I have ever felt - in a way it is easier to walk away and get on with my life. But I won't as I will remember your advice to stick with it. I am going to look for a class we can do together. That is a really good idea and would hopefully get me regular contact.

I really appreciate the support re her walking home from school. It wasn't a decision that I took lightly and I did agonise about it for ages. I always felt that wouldn't necessarily be the final option but rather one we would try and see how it worked out.

Thanks all so much again, I really can't tell you how much I have appreciated all your ideas, suggestions and moral support

xx

Wirral- there's a lot of judgment and insecurity about children choosing to live with their Dads and not their mums. I know I'm a dad.

As in people think you must have done something wrong.

It must be difficult, good luck.

Have read the whole read - as others say, please stick with contact with you daughter, even when she rejects you. I suspect she is testing you and also wanting to punish you (you don't need to valid the reason, it doesn't need to be justified it will be real to her). She is also at a difficult age, I have a wonderful daughter, a few years older now who did become slightly problematic at 12, I was read one piece of advice that said - at 12 more bad days then good, at 14 more good days then bad. Bascially it gets better!!

You will have a life long relationship with your daughter and how you handle this NOW will be important for her (when she looks back as an adult). I was a terrible teen and when I woke up at 17 I was so grateful to my mum for being solid during that terrible teen time.
So keep being her mum, reassuring her you love her and like her, be the person you are, maybe dad can give expensive gifts but you meet her needs in other ways. Don't forget that.
The 13year old boy in her bed..a no no for me. Difficult to handle as dads are normally the protective ones - only thing I suggest is get input from someone else he would trust - maybe a joint friend.
I feel your situation will come good - just my instinct so don't give up

'always seemed to feel sorry for her dad' (and not understood why...

From what you have said, her father has been less than adult about the situation (crying to her outside your friends house); this is a huge burden to place on a child!.. she needs her parents to be solid as Smum99 said (be the adult and support daughter through; not hte other way around).. It seems that the roles might have become a little reversed, and she is feeling that she is responsible (children do this extremely quickly if parents are distressed, etc). I don't hide my emotions, but do always state that I'm ok and can manage it myself (but a hug is welcome :) )

Also, to my mind it is totally inappropriate for a 13 yr old boy to share! It is important though that you go with your 'instincts' in this, which I think you think too ?

Spoke to daughter on phone tonight. She's at her Nan's house (anywhere than with me). She was telling me that her Dad, girlfriend and her daughter are going to see her on the first night of a show that she's in at half term. I had hoped to go the same night (first night) but can't think of anything worse than being there at same time as them.

Pathetic eh? Will go another night instead

Thanks for sticking with me

Yes go another night and tell your DD you thought it would be nicer for her if there was someone there for a second night when she performs.

Incidentally is the nan XH's mum? Is your relationship with her good enough to chat with her about DD? She may have some useful insight into what DD is thinking?

Who's looking after DD over half-term? Do you share the holidays with X or does he intend to take all 13 school holiday weeks off during the year?

Keep going Wirral, you're sounding stronger already.

Hi,

Play sorted - I'll go the middle night when ex husband isn't going.

I've just spoken to him today re contact for next week's half term. I had asked for at least one of the weekends as I don't work. He says I can have her Tuesday overnight until Wedneday (as he's working that night). I attempted to calmly explain that this wasn't reasonable and I would like more time with daughter and one of the full weekends. He says he's worked last two weekends so now wants her for the weekends of the half term. Am I being unreasonable? I just have NO idea how this is going to be resolved short of waiting and seeing what's going to happen

Hi wirral.. you have such patience ! :)

He cannot tell you that you won't be seeing your daughter; he isn't allowed (by law) to be your daughter's gatekeeper! It seems, from what you say, that although he was working those 2 other w/ends, she still didn't stay over with you?.. is that right.

You have to just keep on, and keep booking stuff up with him; nobody would expect you to 'dance' completely around HIS work hours.. its his choice to work and consequently he has to make sacrifices and miss lots of stuff if he's working during social hours;its completely unreasonable for him to expect everyone else to 'dance' to his tune.

Its quite a role reversal!.. Gatekeeping is something that separated mums are often accused of with their ex's.

What will you be booking up next?.. and maybe, as he said he's off for 2 w/ends, phone again and just state that you're happy for him to chose which weekend he wants out of the 2; that's reasonable. Keep a log of requests and refusals to support any further steps you might take to push for proper access. He cannot keep you and your daugther apart. Maybe ask him how many hours a week he would be happy for you to see your own daughter?!?.. any less than half is unreasonable, and you can state that then, and that if things don't change mediation (and possible court) is the only alternative (surely not necessary from two adults?)

just keep on at him. its irrelevant whether he finds it a nuisance, he's giving you no option if hes not prepared to set up a least 1 regular overnight a week, regardless of his work.. his 'hanging' on to her in this way is very unhealthy and gives the wrong message to your daughter, and the longer it goes on the more ingrained the message.. act and keep going :) :) He is actively undermining your relationship with her.

I wish you lots of energy for your required persistence !

What will you do?

Ok - at risk of not telling whole story as HunnieMummie accuses me of, here is his reasoning:

Initially he said I could have Tuesday overnight (that would mean Monday in work, maybe off Tues? Maybe off Wed? back in work Thurs and Fri)

When I asked for one of the weekends, he said that he had been working the past 2 weekends and that he needed quality time with daughter - I did have her one of the weekends (he was in work and his mother was away. Last weekend daughter stayed with his Mum.

He is now saying that things went badly the weekend that she stayed with me - I asked him to collect her an hour and a half early as she was in mood re her homework (really bad decision on my part) We did part friends though.

Daughter is in her theatre show from Thurs to Sat - I think that this is the time that he isn't working so feels as though he is missing out. I am not too sure who asked me what he is going to do regarding 13 weeks holiday but it would appear he will carry on working and let me have daughter when suits him.

Am so tempted to back off and let things take their course whatever that may be but am mindful of the advice on here to always be available to daughter so that is what I'll do.

hi.. is the overnight difficult for you because you work after school hours? where does she go where he is working? (just thoughts, not necessary to feel you have to actually answer my questions :) )

Personally, although i work strange hours, I get my daughter into school and then head off to work (if thats too early for her, I often drop at a friend of hers so they walk in together, and often the same for the return out of school, until I get back, which might be t time). Alternatively, is your mum/dad around to help out if friends of yours/hers couldn't? where's theres a will, there will be a way, its just a case of whittling away at it til you find it. Do you have time off inthe holiday to maybe have her those nights, drop her in for the matinees (if thats what she's doing) and then collect and take back for eve performances and pick up after, she could stay at yours.

you mentioned that he is using the 'bad' w/end as a reason too, when he is not entitled to. You have to manage your daughter without regard tohim while she is with you, again he is gatekeeping. He has to manage her and doesn't give you the opportunity to comment on his management of her (when things go wrong, as they undoubtedly do too).

As regards your choices, whether you 'back off' and let it take it course, or keep battling away at it; its really down to you. Most mums seem to be saying they would keep battling away, but a couple of comments pointed to doing the waiting game. Feeling so desperate to see her when you can't is a jolly good reason to see her (why go through that pain), and there could be other consequences on your relationship with her to consider if you did this. But the alternative of getting equal access has its challenges, as you know, you'll need to find out the best way to tackle this and act upon it to make it happen. You have to know what you want and can manage to do, and whats best for your daughter and you. Such a personal issue which only you can really 'know' the answer to.

I hope airing your views and considering the answers is giving you some much needed opportunity to think through what it is you can and want to do to better your lives.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks Shriek. I don't have any difficulty with overnights. I work the normal 9am -5pm albeit flexi time Mon - Fri. I can make up time on days I don't have daughter.

You are right regarding the management of daughter when she's with me. I do work short days - long days - use parents and friends. I don't ever say that I haven't had "quality time" if I've has to work. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your comments - it sounds mad but he is so convinced he's "right" and I just can't make him understand.

The latest suggestion is the first Friday overnight until Sat afternoon and then Tuesday overnight to Wednesday OR possibly Thursday if daughter is ok with it. I've agreed but asked if I can have the Monday. It seems like madness to me to have to go to work one day and then take the next 2/3 off work. Again I doubt it'll be agreed.

To get back to the backing off option. From my point of view, I do wonder if it's worth trying as it may stop ME getting hurt. I had the normal nightly chat with daughter before and she was monosylabic and certainly doesn't give the impression she wants to spend any time with me at all. Perhaps at the moment I should just be grateful for whatever I can get.

Cooking myself Valentine's meal and opening cava! Also have chocolate - Thank goodness

X

I don't think that a monosylabic daughter of that age is anything out of the ordinary so don't take it to heart.

pleased to hear something is making sense for you.:) extremely hard for you to have to 'take' your daughter being this way towards you.:( It does smack of collusion with her Dad though. The only other thing is that if she does indeed feel wronged in some way; and I would ask her directly (when she comes to stay, after a nice afternoon out together, distractions!), is there is anything wrong?? Don't react just listen (the usual blurb!). If she says there isn't then just say you're finding the phone calls difficult (she might be too). The distance between you at the moment is probably making it difficult. I think my daughter has quite a good relationship with her dad, but she can't talk easily with him on the phone (but different situation - probably completely different reasons).

Keep the communication channels open. Set up time with friends of yours/hers so its relaxed, etc. Just ask her if she finds it difficult - its so difficult to know, but kids are SO sharp to pick up on parental expectations that she might feel very uncomfortable being relaxed with you when at her dads - from what you say he very negative about the meetings, etc. and you've said he's laid all his stuff on her too, so she must know and feel really uncomfortable about that. I'm sure that she's not personally feeling compelled to do everythin she can to make you feel bad. If that IS what's happening there's probably a mix of a lot of contributing factors (could be none of them to do with you personally - be open to all the possibilities so you can really hear her and help her).

If she doesn't actually have any real gripes, then just make it clear that you understand things have been difficult but that you will make an effort but also expect her to, and that you expect her to be polite to you and come to you to share any difficulties should she need to so that you can sort them together, so you can avoid any repeat of the other w/end. Talk about her new family, and how she feels towards them, I think Pickgo said something about 'marking her territory' around the other children and her dad. Keep going :) I get from your last message that you're keeping at it?

Yes, indeed, all too familiar cooking own valentines meal :( but then I'd actually forgotten it was even Valentines today!

No need to just be grateful, keep going, get more, until you are happy with the amount and balance is restored. Enjoy the

well thats more than enough from me. Take care and enjoy your evening

Ok - couldn't settle as needed to try to resolve this - am going to send email below.

Dear exhusband

In no way do I think that I am a perfect Mother. Everyone makes mistakes, we are all only human.

Perhaps I shouldn't have sent her home when she refused to do her homework and started to be nasty to me.All I can do is say sorry, try very hard not to let it happen again and learn from it. If you are going to constantly bring up things for which I am sorry for then I don't think you are setting our daughter a very good example and perhaps this is something that you need to take on board and learn from? Your parents weren't perfect, neither are mine but we both still respect and love them.

I don't and never will think that our daughter should be able to have a good time when off school sick. That was your decision, I have made my feelings clear about it. I don't harp on about it. I accept that is your style of parenting (I don't think it's doing her any favours) but it's your choice. Alternatively you may have made a mistake, will learn from this and try not to do it again. I don't know either way, I just know that I would never have done that, any more that I suspect you would have done some of the things that I have.

I remember an occasion a few years ago (admittedly) when you had to phone me to come and collect our daughter as she'd bitten you and you couldn't cope with her. A little similar to her not doing her homework for me? Perhaps? I never then built this up to such a situation that I denied you further contact with her. These things happen and I am sure that you go through hard times with her that I am not aware of.

I would never miss Mothers' day (as you did Fathers' Day) - although no doubt if I did you would ensure that I would be "paying" for it for a long time. Nor would I ever think it acceptable to get her to share a single bed with an older boy. All of this you've done but I don't keep constantly beating you with it.

I am not sure what is best for our daughter over the half term. I will no longer argue with you over contact arrangments. I will accept that you are doing what you feel is the best for her if you are sure that you are making the arrangments with our daughter's best interests in mind and not just what suits you and your work commitments.

Regardless of what you think about me, I have always tried to do my best for our daughter. I am not perfect but I love her very much and I would ask you to try to put your needs to one side and try to think about what is best for Eleanor in the long term

We need to reach some kind of understanding . Expecting to talk to me when I am in work is not the best option. I realise that you have never worked in an office and possibly don't understand but it is very, very difficult for me to "switch off" and think about home in the environment in which I work. My job isn't easy (and I know yours isn't either) but I would like to be able to concentrate on work when there.

I am just trying to explain. Whatever I have said to you in the past, I do think that you are a "good" Dad. I think you are wrong with the pressure that you put on her but I do admire your tenacity.

Let me know over half term but I would like them to be definite arrangements if I am going to have to take time off work

Regards

Oh dear have just reread it and wonder if I have concentrated too much on the negatives. I tried not to.

I don't think I can do the fighting any more but I will keep telling daughter that I am here for her and always will be

Thanks again

Hi Wirral - have you sent it yet?

If you haven't, personally I'd recommend that you sleep on it & have another look at it in the morning. Think about what you're trying to achieve by sending the email and edit it accordingly tomorrow if you still feel the need to send it.

I think there are a few negative bits that you could take out but still get your essential message across. ie - "I would never miss Mothers' day (as you did Fathers' Day) - although no doubt if I did you would ensure that I would be "paying" for it for a long time." I only say this because I think exH might find it easier to take some of the points on board if he doesn't feel criticised. I'm absolutely not getting at you, I'm sure you are only telling it how it is, I'm just thinking of how you might best get a positive result.

I think Shriek in particular is giving some very good practical advice - try to get some sleep and re-charge your batteries...

You must be feeling worn down by this. I hope whatever you decide to do is for the best.

I'm off to bed now. Take Care.

Thanks - not sent it and did have my doubts. Will sleep on it and try to amend in the morning. I didn't want it to be negative. I NEED to try to get some sort of mutual agreement with this man and alienating him (more than I do already) will not help)

Thanks again
x

Great - I'm sure you'll get it just right this morning. Sometimes it helps to do a first unedited version of emails / letters just to get the feelings out of your system -(I quite often do that). Take Care

very proud of you :) you are biting the bullet!!! Well done. Its great to air your grievances, and what you really needed to do.

I think you managed a pretty balanced report all in all (against the background of what's been going on! ;)) You have complimented him and shown him respect. I think it doesn't harm to mention those 'negatives' as long as they are in terms of trying to show him where 'balance' is needed; in that you gave him the room without any repercussion (although disagreeing with his actions), accept that 'we have different parenting styles', but it is not the basis for withholding contact, which is potentially damaging to a key relationship in her life and to consider very carefully before continuing to do this because of its long-term implications for his daughter.

Keep it up, don't be too hard on yourself, you are making your first steps in redressing a very out of balance situation. Get one step done at a time.

What do you think about it now?

Well, I sent a version of it. This morning and ex has replied in, I think a reasonable way.

He suggests I have her this Friday overnight. She goes back to him on Saturday then I have her from Monday evening to Wednesday evening - I still think it's a lot of tooing and froing for her but think it's more contact with her than I have at the moment. He just says that his problem may be getting her to "agree" to come so I'll see what happens and try not to be too disappointed if it comes to nothing.

He did write the following:

I do think you should have regular contact , I know you think I just want to use you as a baby sitter while I go to work but that isn't what I want. I work shifts and yes I know you say that is not your problem but to a certain degree it is something you have to live with and adapt to in order for us to establish a regular contact pattern. We are both entitled to quality time (by this I mean weekends) as school nights don't always give you the opportunity to do things. While there needs to be a regular pattern to contact there can't be strict enforced time restraints as this only has a negative effect in the long term. It may even mean that we'll have to do the odd thing together with Eleanor to show her that things have improved

I am pondering the above. I always have wanted a "regular contact pattern" but he is unable to do this due to his shifts so I am not sure what is meant by this. Suspect it will still be that I can have her when he is in work.

I am also slightly doubtful regarding the "time restraints". I know that in the past he has wanted leeway with times he returns daughter (for example, The Simpsons don't finish until 6.30pm so he won't bring her back until after that). This used to irritate me if I'd rushed home to be there when he dropped her off only to have him turn up later. However it isn't worth worrying about at the moment as I don't have the problem about him dropping her off.

I think email may be a good way of ommunicating.

Oh good! communication is great!

and brilliant that you have a more reasonable amount of time in place for the holiday.

Any issue she has with you, can only by managed by you, with support from him (towards her), otherwise it looks like gatekeeping again. So he will have to trust you to resolve this with her, and providing you ask her if anything is wrong, whether she has issues with you and giving her the chance to air them, thats the best you can do. I would strongly recommend totally managing the time she's with you, so others are around to distract and lessen any intensity, before settling down to chats.

She is home eve's and w/ends, the same as you, its his work that impacts on that for both of you, and thats whats not fair here.

I don't see that you have done anything so far, but bend to his wishes, but its this thats clearly not working (for a mum/daughter relationship to flourish)

Yes indeed you are both entitled to quality time together, but it is clearly he who is restricting 'his quality time' by working contra to the accepted norm of work/social pattern.. i.e. 9-5 work Mon-Fri, eve's and w/ends off.. he is sabotaging his social time not you, and he should not sabotage yours.

I think you are completely right to want more, and also important to write down that you both agree to keeping strictly to the agreed times/days for everyone's sake, and notification if lateness is completely unavoidable. Its just showing respect; BTW she could have watched the simpsons with you too?!?!

So pleased that you are making headway. What do you think you'll do next?

Thanks Shriek, it really helps that you don't think I am being / have been unreasonable. Ex has spent such a long time telling me that I have been that he really does make me wonder if I am.

I know that the late drop offs are really petty but I used to get annoyed as was unable to plan anything. Often I would rush home to get a phone call or text telling me that daughter was having a good time playing out with friends so he would bring her back late. I know I should be more laid back but it happened so often and without prior agreement. It wouldn't have been a problem if the delays were prearranged then perhaps I could have gone food shopping etc on way home.

I don't feel as though I am making any headway with explaining why I find it difficult to fit in with his shifts. But it isn't an issue at the moment or at least not worth the argument.

As for what I'll do. I've replied agreeing to the half term arrangments. I will await with interest to see if she turns up. I'll phone her every night and see if I can gauge the mood. Also need to plan things to do, although a bit difficult as don't know if she will come or not.

Thanks again

Well done and keep going with the plans; do get it in writing, its important to have a record of whats agreed.

Just wanted to say, that he is supporting his daughter in losing respect for you if she knows you are supposed to be back at an agreed time and he allows her to completely disregard that boundary. These are not little things, they are key to getting your daughter to understand your value and respect as a mum.

Try to stress to him beforehand how important it is that you can rely on these plans, as you will be making plans for her/you/others, and saying that 'she might not come' is no excuse. You will be round to collect at the agreed time as have plans! :) :) enjoy them :)