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Richmond Borough Schools Chat 7

999 replies

muminlondon2 · 09/05/2015 11:29

Lots and lots of discussions on local schools and education issues preceded this thread, including Richmond Borough Schools Chat 6.

Anyone who wants to carry on that discussion, and offer information and opinions (without being moderated by any particular individual or interest group, bearing in mind all the usual mumsnet guidelines about respect and not getting personal, etc.) - feel free.

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muminlondon2 · 14/05/2015 11:32

I haven't noticed anything at RACC yet but imagine it will be a prefab which can get installed in the holidays. There's breeze blocks and cement being used at Heathgate House.

If Deer Park have got a local deputy head on board ( I wonder if a recent SLT restructure in her current school made her look elsewhere?), then so far the senior teaching staff at GEMS primary have been recruited from the private sector. The appointed headteacher and early years head worked together recently at the same private prep school. This may mean they have not completed their NQT induction, the teaching probationary year in a suitable state school. I'd be worried about how they would be able to attract qualified teachers below their level. At a new school like Deer Park it would still be as much of a risk for teachers as for pupils.

From the other non-teaching jobs GEMS advertised, their rates seem fairly low. They’re offering £6.88 per hour for a school cross patrol person – cf. a recent borough school advert for around £11 per hour (e.g. £4,305 salary for 10 hours x 39 weeks = 390 hours). GEMS pays just above the national minimum wage of £6.50 per hour, but not the London Living Wage of £9.15 per hour. And a premises manager on £20,000? That sounds very low.

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auntieC75 · 14/05/2015 11:36

Deer Park School Facebook page added a message yesterday still asking for parents to add their children to the waiting list. Could it be that Parents are voting with their feet as they do not like the idea of sending their children to a school on such an unsuitable site as London House by Manor Circus??

AbsintheAndChips · 14/05/2015 17:06

Grin at Malory Towers! That's probably it!

muminlondon2 · 14/05/2015 21:45

Interesting research from the Sutton Trust about the proportion of MPs who went to state comprehensives.

Conservative 34%
Lib Dem 57%
Labour 64%
SNP 90% Grin

London 43%
Men 45%
Women 58% Smile

ALL MPs 49%

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JozefaPaw · 15/05/2015 08:13

Two recent published Letters to RTT

Not making it ‘inclusive’ -8th May 2015

Sir – Richmond Inclusive Schools Campaign (Risc) thinks that church schools should admit “all children in their communities” (Losing faith in school admissions, Letters, May 1).

How can they do this if they are oversubscribed?

Risc’s answer, presumably, is by using residence-based admissions that other schools use.

This would be good news for wealthy Londoners wanting to move out and secure a place at one of Richmond’s excellent church schools.

They could parachute into a property just before admissions time and deprive someone else of a place.

Risc thinks this would make those schools more “inclusive”.
It would not. It would increase the number of school places that could be secured by a house purchase or short- term rental.

Result: higher house prices and less school choice for poorer families who have lived here for longer.

Richmond has 44 primary schools of which 17 are church schools.
The church schools Helen Clark mentions are situated very close to non-church schools. If they too are full that is a population problem.
The church schools are open to all and only discriminate in favour of churchgoers when they are over-subscribed. Similarly, the non-church schools do not have catchment areas, but when they are over-suscribed they discriminate on distance.

Every over-subscribed school, church or not, has a discriminatory admissions policy.

Tinkering around with admissions policies will not alter the pressure on primary school places, which is the real problem.

It will result in a little bit of movement of who goes where, and more address-based appeals.

The devout family not near a church school, and the dyed-in-the-wool atheist next door to St Wotsit’s, might have schools forced on them which they do not want. For both of them, the extra distance for a school they prefer is worth it. If inclusivity is truly Risc’s aim, when is it going to complain about single sex and academically selective state schools (Waldegrave and Tiffin)?

Risc purports to be about inclusivity but it is a single-issue campaign group focused on church schools’ admissions policies. It should change its name for honesty’s sake.

Criticism of free school plans - 15th May 2015

Sir – I am writing with reference to the Turing House School. Recently I looked at the website and saw that it is a five form entry, 11 to 18 secondary school. All places have been allocated for September 2015.

I had not read in the local paper that Richmond was going to be short of 150 places for September 2015 and so this may mean that other schools have spare places and a loss of income.

Many primary school children go on to private schools and so looking at numbers in year 6 in the borough does not give an accurate number of pupils seeking places in Richmond state schools.

Also a new state secondary school is due to open in 2017 on the Richmond College site.

Free schools are set up by religious groups or by parents who do not like the schools that are on offer.

The school is being set up by Twickenham parents who presumably do not want their children to go to Twickenham Academy which, according to Ofsted, “requires improvement”.

I have great difficulty in getting my head around a system that allows parents to set up a school according to their beliefs and then get the taxpayer to pay for it.

The location of schools should be planned by a governmental body (not necessarily by a local education authority).

They should only be set up in areas where there is a shortage of places. Teddington already has a large, successful comprehensive.

If this school is going to be permanently located on the Imperial College site it will be near a very large primary school. Of course, there will be an impact on traffic in the area. The catchment area of Turing House school is the Fulwell area.

It is one thing for a group of parents to house a school in a redundant building that needs an occupier and little money spent on it.

It is another thing for tax-payers to pay for a new school on very expensive land. The school is opening temporarily in an office building in Teddington.

Money is presently being spent on this building to turn it into a school. I note in RTT on May 8 that the headteacher used the phrase “would be an unreasonable use of public expenditure” in relation to not accepting a pupil with special needs to the proposed school. I would like to say that spending money on a building for temporary use is an unacceptable use of tax-payers’ money. I urge readers to look at the Turing House website and also Wikipedia on the Bristol Free school that is run by the same organisation, RET.

Heathclif · 15/05/2015 09:05

Jozefa And your point is? These issues have been discussed at length on this thread if you want to bring yourself up to speed on the factual background, which neither letter writer has done.

ChrisSquire2 · 15/05/2015 10:35

This week's print RTT has a letter from Jackie Terry of Teddington, Criticism of free school plans (p 20) reproduced above by JosefaPaw.

JozefaPaw · 15/05/2015 13:40

heathcliff what are these facts you refer to?

muminlondon2 · 15/05/2015 13:49

A link to the letter on Turing House is here.

There are a few things the letter writer gets wrong: first of all, the number of places has been cut to 100 in its temporary location, not 150. Secondly, that the school is being set up by Twickenham parents wishing to avoid Twickenham Academy: while I think BayJay was Twickenham based, I'm not sure where the other steering group members were. We know that some Stanley parents support the school - perhaps also St Mary's and St Peter's since they had particular fears in the dropping of the link policy? So it may not just be Twickenham Academy but also Hampton Academy that might be impacted. TA is more affected by the current admissions point, HA might be more affected long term, from the Somerset Gardens point. There's a clearer case here than in Bristol that a shortage of places is looming, although I've also questioned that equates to enough pupils to fill two new schools in the short to medium term on the MIddx side of the borough without HA/TA being seriously affected.

The reference to Bristol Free School and the Wikipedia site is interesting because that page has been edited quite a lot today already - backed up with sources, although perhaps selective.

One thing it does say is that the headteacher of a neighbouring school who feared the impact of BFS threatened a legal challenge but Gove dismissed her in his usual unequivocal manner . Her school (Henbury) has suffered a significant decline in pupil numbers since BFS opened - down 42 Y7 pupils, around a third. In comparison with BFS in the 2014 census it had 34.5% eligible for FSM (nearly three times as many as BFS) and twice the average for SEN. So that might be the parallel for Richmond.

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Heathclif · 15/05/2015 14:35

Josepha You might start here cabnet.richmond.gov.uk/documents/s54395/LBRuTSchoolPlacePlanningStrategy20152024.pdf plus the census, the

Your posts are today's wave of uninformed and unevidenced opinion which keeps arriving on here asserting new schools are not needed etc. without the posters having the courtesy to do basic research, or even manifest any first hand experience of the environment faced by Richmond parents, Regasmin, FelipeBot and DeborahTripp1. All strangely consistent. Hmm

I am not a Turing parent and I actually find it rude and lacking in respect. I am always happy to engage in informed debate but constantly having to reiterate known facts and history is just boring. Perhaps I will just focus on my own NUIMBY concerns with the Planning Application for St RR Wink

Heathclif · 15/05/2015 15:19

And Nexie16 another consistent in style and content, and all new to Mumsnet, let alone this thread. Hmm

ChrisSquire2 · 15/05/2015 16:20

They should also work their way through New Secondary schools for Richmond! (1000 Posts) which started this discussion on February 23 2011 and the 5 threads that followed it before this one . .

sheilafisher · 15/05/2015 16:25

Going back to the % of MPs going state v's private, the SNP figure is easily explained by the relative lack of private schools outside of central Edinburgh and Glasgow. Eg Dundee a reasonably large city only has one - and Andrew Marr is a FP there.

muminlondon2 · 15/05/2015 18:07

Stella, interesting. But I've found a link here that says the proportion of Scottish pupils in independent schools is 4.4% and the Sutton Trust figures say it's 7% in England and Wales. My figures didn't include grammar schools but if you do, in Scotland, 5% of their MPs went to independent schools whereas in England as many as 36% of our MPs did. So English MPs are much less representative.

In London 39% of MPs went to independent schools. But according to recent research (see page 17) only about 10.5% of children living in Greater London are estimated to attend independent secondary schools.

Of course, Richmond, is one of the wealthiest boroughs, stuffed full of influential people, so the proportion of children at independent secondaries is estimated to be far higher than even the London average at around 35.2%.

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muminlondon2 · 15/05/2015 18:41

Sheila sorry

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Heathclif · 15/05/2015 20:36

mum Of course, Richmond, is one of the wealthiest boroughs, stuffed full of influential people, so the proportion of children at independent secondaries is estimated to be far higher than even the London average at around 35.2%.

And also stuffed with parents who can only just afford school fees but find themselves without a place at a good state school, which is the other part of the reason the proportion is so high.

muminlondon2 · 15/05/2015 23:59

The vast proportion of places at private schools in this borough are highly selective - as we have discussed. In terms of non-selective state schools, which is a different kettle of fish, 'good' (or 'good enough') is relative. There are still parents from neighbouring boroughs looking to RPA, or HA/TA, who think they are a better alternative to what is on their doorstep. Looking at value added scores, they may not be, but they are still relatively more popular - at present.

Turing House has not, at least, proposed selection by ability. That's a tick in my book, if you want, but I can see trouble and disruption in that respect not so far from our borough.

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sheilafisher · 16/05/2015 17:35

In terms of schools per constituency the central belt is disproportionately represented though mum. Completely by the by, and nothing to do with Richmond though...Smile

sheilafisher · 16/05/2015 17:37

And of course there are no grammar schools in Scotland. Some may have the title grammar, but they are not selective.

muminlondon2 · 16/05/2015 18:35

Or it shows the upwardly mobility of the Scottish education system - whether because they are all comprehensive schools (inevitable in rural areas) or the exam system. Something for us to learn from perhaps? forget Finland or Singapore!

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muminlondon2 · 16/05/2015 18:47

And also the true localism of the Scottish MPs standing - not dominated by city dwellers.

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sheilafisher · 16/05/2015 22:34

Indeed on both counts!

muminlondon2 · 17/05/2015 23:41

I've just noticed that a Hounslow primary school that was linked to Hampton Academy, Forge Lane, has been converted into a Church of England voluntary aided school. Anyone know about this?

This was apparently done to 'raise standards'. Now the new government has announced that the forced academies programme has been extended to cover coasting schools, however they choose to define that ('requires improvement'?). I'm not exactly clear what that means for schools that are already sponsored academies, The last statistics from Ofsted's Dataview shows that among secondaries, 47% of sponsored academies are less than 'good' compared to 35% of LA maintained schools.

(As a comparison, 19% of LA maintained primaries are grade 3 or below, but 43% of sponsored academy primaries.)

So perhaps the Forge Lane/St Richards conversion is an alternative form of sponsorship?

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ChrisSquire2 · 18/05/2015 00:21

OED has:

‘coast . . 13.e. fig. Not to exert oneself; to make progress without undue effort . .
. . 1957 Times 6 Sept. 13/1 The English team coasted comfortably to a total of 246.’

The link says: ‘It is understood that there is no firm definition of a “coasting” school.’ I think a coasting secondary school is one whose exams scores are no better than average when adjusted for the attainment of its intake. There is however no agreement as to exactly how to make the adjustment.

Policy Exchange wrote (Academies after 2015 Feb 2015):

. . coasting . . would probably encompass a much smaller group which could be defined, for example, as secondary schools who are above the floor standards for performance at 16, but whose pupils’ progress scores via the new Progress 8 scores has been below expected levels for say two or three years in a row . .