Richmond Borough Schools Chat 7

[muminlondon2]

Lots and lots of discussions on local schools and education issues preceded this thread, including Richmond Borough Schools Chat 6.

Anyone who wants to carry on that discussion, and offer information and opinions (without being moderated by any particular individual or interest group, bearing in mind all the usual mumsnet guidelines about respect and not getting personal, etc.) - feel free.

Have tried to post 3 times lol grrr

I walked past the Turing site today. Not sure how they'll fit a secondary school there. Surely it will also have a massively detrimental impact on Twick academy intake?

Have 2 dcs at Teddington at the moment. I'm not convinced about the 6th forms yet in the borough nor the subjects they offer.

'Predatory' would be emptying pupils out of TA with a 50/50 or more generous split, 'nonsensical' is the 80/20 split bussing pupils past TA (and HA too) yet without a benefit for locals suffering the traffic inconvenience. Either way is contentious. I understand why 'stage not age' might not appeal, but if there has been a review of governance already, there's a chance the sponsor may get switched within two years (either by the end of its seven-year funding agreement term or because of new legislation that makes it easier).

It will be interesting to see after a couple of years how Kingston Academy affects choice in Teddington, or at least Hampton Wick.

Turing House are definitely in difficult position with regards to their admissions policy.

This school in this news story has an interesting approach. They have working with the local council to create an admissions policy that is based on fairness and inclusion. I think there is a lot to be learnt from this.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-32412744

"After siblings and looked-after children, half the intake will be based on closeness to the school, with the other half of pupils shared between closeness to the other three points on the map.

Working with the city council, it is a deliberate attempt to create a mixed intake - mixed in terms of socio-economics, ethnicity and academic ability.
The first pupils, starting in the autumn, will come from 61 different primary schools."

But the Turing House policy is the opposite of inclusive, as it will take DC from two 'naice' areas, the 20% figure in Whitton will mean conveniently avoiding having to take from the wider demographic that TA has to have.

Yes, the Turing House admissions policy isn't currently inclusive, it's selective. Hence a lot to be learnt I think in order to balance everyone's needs and truly be an inclusive community school.

"It would be interesting to know how many of the 100 joining Turing will in fact be travelling from Whitton....."

This is true. Probably very few students from Whitton as Turing House didn't market the school at open evenings and feature in primary school newsletters in that area. The marketing was targeted at their preferred admissions area.

Turing was in the admissions brochure which went to everyone but I don't remember seeing any other adverts this year at all. Our primary school head put the open evening dates in the school newsletter with the other schools.
There must be Whitton families though because the last email we got from the school was talking about bus routes for them.

I don't get how they can keep anyone happy at the Whitton site if they're accused of being predatory for basing admissions at the school and uninclusive for basing them at the admissions point. Maybe random allocation is the answer but they would still have to put a catchment area on that. Well done to Birmingham council for helping out in your rxample JGood, but It doesn't sound like Richmond was as helpful. I just don't get how they could suggest that site next to TA without also suggesting a sensible admissions policy to go with it.

It's possible Birmimgham University worked with the school in the same way that Richmond College worked with the council, which secured a school that would work with a wide catchment area, as well as providing statutory SEN provision. It doesn't look like RET has cooperated with councils particularly closely in other areas, or school heads, at least, and there has been little in Admissions Forum minutes suggesting much liaison on admissions policy apart from identifying the original area of demand. Their forecasts for a free school in addition to one facilitated by the council has only ever been for 100 places. It's hard to know what was discussed, but maybe the Whitton site was all the council could suggest to secure the funding agreement, but they were expecting some other commercial premises could be secured by the EFA.

All your maybes are so negative muminlondon. Sorry, but it makes you sound really spiteful.

Maybe its been suggested before, but how about having the school in Whitton, and making it from, say Y7-9 and then transferring (almost no distance) for 10-13 at TA?

It's hard to avoid 'maybes' when the site is uncertain. But I'm being critical of RET, and the admissions policy of the school, not you jellytoto. Turing House shouldn't have amended its admissions policy before anyone was in a position to understand it and contribute to the consultation. The LA was the only stakeholder that had the inside information to understand its significance, but we haven't seen that advice in full. This just leads to more 'maybes'. I also think it is strange for the council to have suggested a Whitton site. What could explain it, and this is a positive view not a negative one, is that the council named it as a last resort, an option that doesn't have to be deployed, but was pragmatic in buying more time on other negotiations and facilitating the school when it had to sign a funding agreement. If it is the only way, then it's for the school to work out the most inclusive admissions policy that parents wouldn't object to. I've given a positive suggestion that they prioritise a proportion on pupil premium, which would balance out the intake at their geographical admissions point and help other local Whitton and Hounslow schools.

Jelly yes this thread goes in circles at the moment largely because it is just speculation and spin. Until we know where the site is and the admissions criteria evolves, doubtless if it is Whitton to the least worst option between "predatory" and "nonsensical" or perhaps just "pragmatic" (and I doubt the word "predatory" would come into it if the nearest school is Teddington) then that is all it can be.

Mrs Salvo you keep coming out with these gross generalisations about Whitton children and never return to back them up. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with Chase Bridge, Nelson etc. primary schools that are oversubscribed and similar thriving communities to Stanley or Trafalgar and comparable on all measures of social make up. And I know middle class teachers from this side of the A316 who love teaching there When schools are undersubscribed like Twickenham Academy and Heathfield, and indeed Buckingham on the other side of the A316 then middle class parents with the resources to find other options do so, especially when what they offer is not mainstream as in the case of The LST schools. I would bet that the social make up of RPA will change rapidly now it is becoming a more popular choice in local schools like East Sheen, Barnes Primary etc (and it is) . Whitton parents are no exception. Plenty of Whitton pupils in LEH and Hampton who would, just like the Sheen parents, prefer to be at a local outstanding inclusive mainstream school, not least because of the struggle to pay fees. And nothing in the thousands of posts you could read on these threads that chart the birth and development of Turing are evidence of anything but a school started by parents who saw their community forged in the nursery and primary schools breaking up as catchments shrank back from their area, Fulwell and west of the Green as families move, go private or further afield.

Except those options are drying up. Every neighbouring borough is facing a pupil bulge. competition for private school places has intensified to the point where the selective schools are really struggling to distinguish between applicants. In the past I would have said that any parent forking out for years of tutoring was doing it out of their own anxiety rather than the school's requirements, they are good at spotting ability over tutoring. It is partly anxious parents putting their children in for more schools but the schools are now filling up with more able children. Underlying that is parental anxiety about the state options. St RR , RPA and Turing are all attracting pupils who have private school places (just as Teddington, OP etc always have. )

JGoodm quite a few posters on the Whitton against Turing Facebook page had applied to Turing, the tone of the site which was indeed bitter at first changed as a result. I really doubt that you will get quite the same furore over the admissions point if the parents in the area had a choice of another "outstanding" mainstream school. And Turing did indeed consider alternative admissions criteria that would make it more socially inclusive, again all documented on these threads. It was LBRUT that focused it on the midpoint between existing schools. if Paul Hodgins is now questioning the wisdom then that is only with the benefit of hindsight having considered the site options.

And MrsSalvo I can repost the maps of relative deprivation (because in this borough we really are talking relative) and school statistics to prove my point again though as you did not bother to respond last time I won't invest the energy unless you are going to back up your point of view. I suggest you go to Whitton, drive around a bit, sit in Crane Park or Kneller Park with the children playing and then see if you really think it is that socially different to Fullwell. The statistics back up what I know to be true because I have done that a lot and have friends who live and teach there and it does really annoy me when people trot out lazy stereotypes.

It is disingenuous to refer to the demographics of those living closest to the Whitton site. TA has to take in DC from a much wider catchment - by limiting the number of Whitton DC, TS would be carefully avoiding having to take those from farther away in Hounslow, thus further skewing the relative intakes of TA and the putative TS.
If parents are now flocking to RPA which used to be as unpopular as TA, and the journey to where TA is located is acceptable (since TS may be there and the journey is not deterring parents) then why not flock to TA instead?

It is not disingenuous at all. It is perfectly logical to assume that if TA was an outstanding mainstream school like Teddington and Orleans something that for parents in their catchments, and all the ones that are not in catchment but apply unsuccessfully, is the mainstream sort of school they want for their children, then the catchment would be Whitton. That is exactly the pattern you see emerging at RPA with a catchment now not even covering the whole of Barnes, even with waiting list movement. There would be a lot less upset (albeit with valid concerns about building on open space, traffic etc) about another school arriving that served a different area of need and the Planning process could focus on balancing the need and the interests of residents as it will if, one can only hope when, the site is UP.

TA is only sucking in children from a far wider catchment, presumably those that don't live in catchment for the outstanding Hounslow Schools of which there are now several, some attended by Whitton pupils whose parents did want that mainstream sort of school, because it's offering is not mainstream. People are not not sending their children there because of the journey but because of the academic offering, both the methods and the depth and range of the curriculum. Even allowing for that as soon as it becomes oversubscribed which it will because there is a shortage of school places in the face of an even larger pupil bulge in Hounslow than here, then those children won't get in anyway .

It is all very well offering "choice" whether it is faith or Swedish teaching methods but don't expect those parents left with no choice to be compliantly corralled in if it is not a popular option for parents.

And LBRUT is not planning for the education of the Hounslow pupils. It is planning for the education of in borough pupils, and has all along acknowledged the need for two new schools to meet that need.

Though it is true that for the Barnes parents given no offer but TA the journey was obviously the deal breaker.

It is disingenuous to suggest that most children at TA come from Whitton. A large proportion come from Hounslow borough, mostly from the Butts Farm estate which no one would claim is a middle class area.
This is the issue that prompted me to sign the petition against TH being based in Whitton. It's the elephant in the room that no one will acknowledge. There is undoubtedly an issue of class here, which leads to the bizarre prospect of kids from Fulwell and Teddington being bussed past Twickenham Academy ,to a more 'middle class' school which the local children are excluded from.

bladderwrack
Precisely.
And incidentally the whole - successful- marketing of RPA recently has been on the basis that if 'more children like yours' go to the school it will be a far less culturally and racially diverse and with less EAL, so less scary for your MC children nicer place...

MrsSM its not as easy as that for TA and HA because It's not the demographic that's the problem but the ethos. Have you been to look round? They've got plenty of middle class kids but if you don't think the stage not age model will suit your child (or your teaching ambitions if you're a teacher) then you're not going to choose it no matter how nice the kids are.

No Mrs Salvo RPA has marketed itself as a school serving the local community which will always be diverse because it includes the Roehampton estate and, they thought, the Lowther estate. That is why the Lowther parents, a pretty diverse bunch themselves, are so disappointed to now find themselves excluded. And a failing school filled up with refugees escaping inner city schools along the South Circular was never a good idea fromanyones point of view. Bladderwrack that is exactly what the Turing parents set out to do,have a school that served a community that was faced with a shortage of school places and a Council that focused it's resources on creating a school that didn't serve the local community ,and incidentally has pupils travelling in from Fulham to Sunbury, instead of planning for that need. I don't blame Whitton parents being as miffed as I was at the prospect of a school on their doorstep that doesn't serve my community but this is about community not snobbery. As I highlighted before they originally sought a more inclusive admissions policy than just distance. TwickenhamAcademy should be popular , having large estates nearby hasn'stopped RPA or Greycourt being popular. It isn't because it isn't the sort of school local parents want. Neighbouring mainstreamSchools on the Hounslow side are oversubscribed too.

I don't have time for snobbery,either straightforward or inverted, the latter of which is what is driving far too much of this debate . They are all kids who deserve to be in inspiring and well led schools.

It's also disingenuous to keep repeating the argument that the main reason parents don't want to choose TA is because of the Swedish model of education that is followed. That system has only been in place for 5 years and the school was undersubscribed for many years before that.
As a parent I'm looking at the School's results, the students' behaviour and what other people say about their experience of the school. I believe that is what most parents are looking at.
Doubtless if TA was getting better results, we'd all be fighting to get our kids in and wouldn't give a monkey's what educational model the school followed.

bladderwrack prior to LST the school was failing and had been for some time,as with RPA new leadership was undoubtedly needed. In the case of RPA that leadership and a traditional educational model has led to the school being oversubscribed and lots of word of mouth enthusiasm, at TA it hasn't. I can certainly respect the judgement of the many
Parents who have trooped faithfully up to TA with an open mind because they appreciate results only tell you part of the story about the quality of the teaching and decided they don't want their children glued to computer screens following personalised learning plans,a weak MFL offering, limited sixth form options, less than inspiring leadership etc. and decided it compares unfavourably with whatever other options they can access with a more traditional proposition. It is different. I am certainly not being disingenuous because I have heard it from so many sources along with serious cynicism from members of the teaching community.

I do hope that the school can adapt to the needs of parents as HA has apparently done to a greater extent and get itself rated outstanding but I tend to agree with mum that in terms of the scarce resources available maybe the LST proposition only merits one school.

When schools are undersubscribed like Twickenham Academy and Heathfield

Heathclif please take care not to spread misinformation about Heathfield - and it's two separate schools anyway. These schools are not undersubscribed. They are well supported and good/improving. In the 2014 census there were 115 children in Reception and 128 in Year 3. The Junior school has been rated 'good' for its last two inspections and the Infants is 'taking effective action' on areas identified for improvement, strengthened by a newly federated governing body and leadership team that benefits from the strengths of the Junior schools, with 'focused leadership', 'rigour', prioritising teaching that is 'consistently good and better', etc.

I'm not sure where the idea came from that RPA is now more subscribed is because of the leadership .
The main two reasons are the credit crunch squeezing those who would have gone indie, and the sterling efforts of the Heads of Barnes Primary and East Sheen Primaries to pressgang persuade parents to send their DC there.
The mooted federation of those three schools RPA, BP & ESP, (as trailed on the Richmond Council website recently) with potentially the Head of Barnes Primary as the overall Head is what has led many parents to take a punt, not the underwhelming track record (lack of progress of pupils in all categories) of the RPA Head.

Multi-Academy Trust