Richmond Borough Schools Chat 7

[muminlondon2]

Lots and lots of discussions on local schools and education issues preceded this thread, including Richmond Borough Schools Chat 6.

Anyone who wants to carry on that discussion, and offer information and opinions (without being moderated by any particular individual or interest group, bearing in mind all the usual mumsnet guidelines about respect and not getting personal, etc.) - feel free.

Jelly "It can't have been too hard to outbid a few community groups and a penny pinching government agency." True, it was always a risk it would come down to £££££s. Imperial after all have their own interests in terms of raising the maximum amount of money to invest in keeping themselves as one of the most sought after unis both nationally and internationally, particularly as their specialisms are expensive to deliver. They are on the end of penny pinching government agencies themselves.

However it would be harder for a developer to get Planning permission if the Council had come out firmly in favour of Turing getting the site, the need for school places could trounce the need for housing under the Planning framework. That and stronger lobbying of Imperial might have made a difference. It seems as though they have opted for being seen to keep the Teddington residents happy and if it is true that no covenants are in place they must have known that it is wide open to development. The end result is they have left them in a position where it will be housing rather than a school with open playing fields and community use.

Fox Class Civ isn't a facilitating subject so if your DD doesn't get onto an A level course it won't stop her pursuing her interests at university, universities won't require it to move on to study Classics at university. In fact it might be worth looking into which A levels the unis do prefer for the courses she may want to apply to. As a jaded and cynical parent I have to say I think A levels are increasingly becoming a checklist hurdle, regurgitating lists of information to get the marks. A means to an end, rather than allowing pupils to have much opportunity for meaningful study / an education. My DD is currently having to unlearn all the techniques she was taught to do well in her subject at A level (a Humanity) in order to actually manifest her ideas and ability at university level, something which would have put getting an A in peril at A level.

And since we never had much of a chance of a good state education in Richmond, no place offered at primary etc. , then I can testify that you move, you go back to work, and you make sacrifices......... KGS is a fantastic school by the way.

I do wonder about that Whitton against Turing interpretation though. Remember that the EFA almost secured the site and it was only as a result of indiscreet leaks from the meetings of Council and School Heads that it fell through. There was no suggestion at that stage that the Council were anything but supportive of Turing getting the site. Teddington residents know that too, since they were the ones that made the information viral by putting it on Twitter. Perhaps this is just the Councillor covering himself.

Fox Surbiton do Class Civ as well and are almost a £1000 a term cheaper, not quite as many satisfied parents / pupils as KGS though.

Thanks Heathclif, I had a look and I'm not sure dd would get in. They also only take about 10 children apparently!

Dd's teacher thinks she stands a chance of getting in to Esher but I am not so sure as it just depends how many apply, it's a lottery really. I have explained to her that she will need to stay if she can't get in there.

I know she doesn't have to do it but I have always said to them to enjoy school and do subjects that interest them. I suspect she will go on to do some form of History at University.

Quite a lot of her friends are being made to stay in their schools to go to the 6th forms so their younger siblings get automatic places at the school in year 7. Will be interesting to see if they keep the sibling link at the 6th forms or change it at some stage. The A level results will be interesting too.

There are rumours that the council have given up on Twickenham Academy's sponsor and want them out, though those comments muminlondon linked earlier show the Conservatives weren't ever supportive. That might be why they prefer a whitton site for Turing over the Teddington one, to help them on their exit strategy. People are also talking again about the land behind David Lloyd, which would be a better location if it was big enough although it's also metropolitan open land and has footpaths on it, but at least nobody living round it.

The David Lloyd centre is close to Hampton Academy, though, which has been more successful in some ways than Twickenham Academy, It could get its own sponsor replacement to give it a boost and make it attractive to Hampton Hill or North Teddington pupils and provide additional choice. So much money has been spent rebuilding these schools - they should be made to work as they are. Unless their vision is to persuade RET to take over as TA sponsor and merge the schools in a couple of years, with an option on the nursery site for expansion later. An admissions point 100% on distance from Percy Road could be retained (the Somerset Gardens point couldn't be justified if Hampton Academy was also starting afresh, but a 50/50 split back to Brunswick Close might be ). The Whitton Sempervirens site would then be more acceptable in planning terms if it took more local children, generating less traffic.

The alternative of letting a third school be built that picked its own intake, while waiting years for KS/Learning Trust to give up just seems wasteful and disruptive. And unfair - because whatever you think of the KS/Learning Trust schools, they have not changed the distance-based admissions policy.

Jelly that land has political history in that when it was Amida the company that ran it made a couple of attempts to lock the public out of it, and the golf course, after dark, ostensibly because of vandalism but also it was thought to be the first stage of making it completely private. It was leased to them on condition that public access continued. There was an outcry from those who walked their dogs across it and a petition and Counsellor Samuels, after it must be said an unseemly period of silence from LBRUT (possibly hoping the problem would go away, and Amida would get away with it, not long after they got permission for an extension, regardless of MOL status) rode his white charger to the rescue, and enforced the conditions of the lease and promised public access would remain. It is rumoured that he has been blocking The proposal to put Turing there on the strength of his promise. Bonkers since the issue always concerned the golf course and if Turing was put on the waste ground access could remain, the environment would actually improve and the school would provide other positive contributions to the community even aside from good school places.

mum though the David Lloyd site would be close geographically to HA in terms of access it would actually be more accessible from the TA catchment. The only way out of Hampton to the David Lloyd site is actually almost via Hampton Hill, or right down to the Feltham roundabout. Because of the A316 access you can get into Hampton from there but it is hard to leave! It contributes to making HA feel more of a community school.

fox the girls' school sixth forms are not popular, they suffer an exodus to the coeds. Probably why Waldegrave opted to go coed for sixth form. I know that Surbiton are not particularly selective at that stage, as long as they are sure the candidates will do reasonably well in their chosen A levels. KGS take around 35 and admit on interview and getting an A at GCSE in the chosen subject.

But heathclif, not quite sure if I understand your directions, does that mean we agree Hampton Academy would be itself a great location for what Turing House is lining up to take as its own catchment - Hampton Hill and Fulwell. Beautiful building, too. And it could be more successful with a different sponsor. All focus has been on how TA will be affected, but the great pity is that it may be Hampton Academy that is affected more. I think the head there has worked really hard, despite the sponsor lacking in experience. The protest by the Conservatives about the Swedish sponsor probably undermined confidence from the beginning, but seeing as the government now wants to remove all parental dissent completely, they were right to voice concerns. I understand if parents vote with their feet but affected schools and the children in them will get harmed by it. A chunk of HA's more local catchment now will overlap too closely with TH's proposed catchment, while TH's current catchment near Waldegrave will rock TA for the first year. The Tedfington site may still have affected both schools but at least no pupils would be going past one school to reach another.

mum i am actually referring to the accessibility out of that area around and south of the Hanworth road which forms most of the catchment of Hampton Academy, not helped by the R70 going on a circuitous rote through it. I think that you have to consider the damage done by a school on the David Lloyd site in more than just geographical terms. A parent in the nursery lands area is going to view HA as their local school, helped by the fact that under the leadership of the current Head it has taken steps to be part of that community. A school on the David Lloyd site would be perceived by them as inacessible even though it is close as the crow flies. You may remember how upset the Hampton parents were with only an offer at Buckingham because of those issues of accessibility. I don't think many Hampton Hill and particularly Fulwell parents would regard HA as their local school. And of course the admissions point is designed to focus on the area where the need will emerge.

I agree that it would be a great shame if ithe work of the HA Head were undermined but I think that by virtue of her leadership it might not be to the extent you think. I would like to see her success built on with a new sponsor and the focus on making TA into a school that meets the needs of it's community, because it's failure to do that is why it is vulnerable in the first place. But it's not going to happen in a hurry, LST is not going to walk away, and they are not failing spectacularly enough to be pushed. It seems very likely both schools are full this time.

I haven't had chance to look into it but by the look of those figures on applications which haven't gone up as much as was predicted on the basis of past census figures, what I have been hearing anecdotally, that the applications to private schools increased this year and the process took a jump in terms of the competitiveness of the selection process, is going to be manifest in the figures. Given we have RPA, St RR and Turing all now attracting applicants who otherwise would have gone private it looks like parents are more aware than ever of the difficulties of getting into a good state school and many more are applying to the private sector.

it's not going to happen in a hurry I agree - the two schools have around 300 pupils between them and there are others - Ark Putney included, and RPA until the last year or two - with fewer than 100 per year.

Private schools - lots of reasons for the ever-increasing interest. Richmond borough is a very expensive to live, and London is becoming so international and polarised in terms of wealthy areas attracting more wealth. The fact that two LibDem MPs have been voted out in five years are an indication how demographics have changed over the years. House prices are insane and unaffordable for many families without some equity, inheritance or a very good career backing them up. There are also a lot of ex pats working in high level jobs (on company lets) who have come to be based in Richmond because they've done their research on mumsnet. There are more selective private places in Richmond than state grammar school places available nearby, with enough people happy to pay for it. And at the other end, the relentless focus on Ofsted, performance tables, targets, Ebacc, facilitating subjects, etc. makes the private sector seem attractive for those who perhaps work in creative industries (and can afford it), and aren't obsessed with exams, where it offers flexibility with creative arts, sporting or 'character building' opportunities (much as I hate that term). Although not as many places so still very competitive. How many places altogether in Richmond borough? About 700 not even counting the Ballet School or international schools? Hampton Boys is bigger than Orleans Park. Obviously lots of movement to/from other boroughs and schools, but it's a big concentration here. From your experience was LEH still local in terms of Richmond borough residents?

Given we have RPA, St RR and Turing all now attracting applicants who otherwise would have gone private

Still not convinced that RPA is attracting those who would otherwise go private - not those bound for highly selective schools. The outcome in September will look similar to last year - they've just played it differently. That's not to say it isn't getting more popular but it was starting from a low base. Maybe we'll get more information on application numbers soon. I hear Kew House had 600 applications so plenty of interest there. Many could have been local to RPA. If the Harrodian is down on applications, it may because of the new private sector competition.

KGS were saying that they had 1000 pupils taking part in the entrance exams. They are an increasingly popular school though with quite a bit of buzz. LEH numbers seem to stay fairly static at around 400, but there is some self selection in who applies because of it's academic reputation as a hothouse (though I firmly believe at the end of this process it is the pupils that get the results , and they would be enabled to get those results in any of the good schools around here, state or private, providing they are happy at the school). The coach network, their situation on the edge of London, handy for Surrey and their place in the league tables mean that LEH and Hampton do have an unusually large catchment, coaches go from Ealing to Ascot and Woking, but there is still around half the pupils coming from the adjacent suburbs, and some of the busiest coach routes serve Barnes and Sheen. The other schools catchments tend to be more local to them though Surbiton also has a wide catchment, because it has the biggest cohort. Apart from anything else most sane parents don't really want their children spending two hours or more in London traffic.

I agree with you on changing demographics but I also think there is a wide band in the middle of parents who if they have a good state school place will take it but apply to private schools, often surprised to find themselves in that situation, as a back up. I certainly know of families who have accepted Turing, RPA and St RR places who were prepared to go private and had places lined up but would have been reluctant to commit to the expense, and indeed ethos. The waiting lists at the private schools do jump after the state offers come out. And I also think the level of parental anxiety around schooling means not just more parents applying but also parents are applying to more schools so there is a bit of false inflation in the numbers applying compared to those actually taking places. That anxiety seems to affect all the affluent suburbs of West and North London, it's certainly not confined to Richmond, you hear similar stories in relation to the Hammersmith Schools.

Both primary and secondary education is changing in this area. With a choice of private education available to those who can afford it, some parents will certainly consider that rather than choose a Free School/Academy - especially those opening on unsuitable sites and in areas where the demand is not the greatest. It is sad that this is happening in the Richmond Borough which has always had a good reputation but land prices are so high which attracts developers rather than those in charge of education

Hey Foxy - dd goes to KGS - it is fabulous, try her for it! :)

Last year pupils in these state schools and Colleges in the area did Classical Civilisation A-level:

Esher College (46)
Richmond College (23 students)

Strode's (18),
Tiffin Girls (6)
Gumley House (5) (also St Mark's if you are Catholic)

They also did it at LEH (4), Surbiton (7), Harrodian (7), Kingston Grammar (2) and Putney High (6).

Hmm those numbers are very low in some schools for a humanity. In order to get a good discussion going that will enable stimulating ideas and arguments to emerge I think you need at least 10. I would wonder why? There is definitely a shift in private schools towards doing what are considered "hard" subjects, both within the Humanities (ie the facilitating subjects like straight History /English) and with some pupils for whom Sciences are not their particular talent opting for them. I think there is a cultural driver to that too since in some cultures humanities would be less valued. I don't agree but if you are even considering forking out £000s a term to get the subject choice I would want to understand the reasons behind the low numbers, and how they overcome the problems inherent in them.

There was a striking essay byEdith Hall in Saturday’s Guardian:

Classics for the people – why we should all learn from the ancient Greeks: The dazzling thought-world of the Greeks gave us our ideas of democracy and happiness. Yet learning classics tends to be restricted to the privileged few. It’s time for ‘elitist dinosaurs’ to embrace a citizens’ classics for all

. . The situation is aggravated by the role that training in the ancient languages . . plays in dividing social and economic classes. One of the many ways in which the schism between rich and poor in Britain is reflected educationally is in access to Greek and Latin grammar. In 2013 . . 3,580 state-sector candidates took A-levels in classical civilisation or ancient history. Greek A-level was taken by 260 candidates; 223 of these were at independent schools, which only 7% of our children attend; Latin was taken by 1305 candidates, a depressing 940 of whom were at independent schools.

High grades in the ancient languages – easily enough won by solicitous coaching – provide near-guaranteed access to our most elite universities. For those without Greek and Latin A-levels there are indeed Oxbridge opportunities: a 4-year classics course at Cambridge, and at Oxford the fast-track “Course II” . . focussing on history and material culture rather than literature and philosophy. The chances of admission for these are in line with other (humanities) courses.

But it is easier to get into Oxbridge to read the long-established classics courses, requiring an ancient language A-level, than any other subject - between 2012 and 2014, for the traditional classics “Course I” at Oxford, 51 students were accepted from the state sector and 233 from fee-paying schools. There is nothing like such a high percentage of privately educated students on any other course; there is no similarly high chance of admission – at around 45% . .

Same schools/colleges, history A-level entrants:

Esher College (179)
Richmond College (127)
Strode's (98),
Tiffin Girls (32)
Gumley House (18)
St Mark's (20)

LEH (9) (cf. 41 Maths, 28 Biology/Chemistry, 20 Psychology, 9 French, 4 Spanish, 4 German, 5 Latin, 3 History of Art, 1 Art & Design, 1 Music, so much for the Arts and Humanities then - and few linguists from that intake...)
Surbiton (20)
Harrodian (14)
Kingston Grammar (40)
Putney High (14)

Oh dear, looked at entrants in A-level languages generally in same schools/colleges and it's low. I singled out LEH unfairly because numbers are low elsewhere, too.

French

Esher College (31)
Richmond-upon-Thames College (19)
Tiffin Girls' (18)
Strode's (13)
LEH (9)
Putney High (8)
Kingston Grammar (8)
Harrodian (7)
Surbiton High (2) (Nicky Morgan better have a word)
Gumley House (2)

Spanish

Richmond-upon-Thames College (29)
Esher College (25)
Strode's (15)
Tiffin Girls' (9)
Surbiton High (7)
Putney High (6)
LEH (4)
Harrodian (4)
Kingston Grammar (3)
Gumley House (3)

• so where are our language teachers going to come from, especially if state schools are going to get graded down in their Ofsted for not teaching Ebacc? (Hampton Boys has over 20 taking each language, at least - how high does the salary need to be to tempt them into teacher training for a state school?)

I believe Waldegrave offers Class Civ as well, although expect numbers would be small so Richmond College may be a better option if they still run it too. DS did Latin at Teddington School and has found it useful despite cursing the extra curricular lessons at the time!

Wow those numbers are really interesting. I couldn't find c civilisation in any of the schools here in last year's 6th form handbook but maybe it has changed.

Languages are not popular at school. Both dd and ds have both told me that they are seen to be 'hard' options for GCSE with most children only continuing with a language because their parents want them to not because they enjoy it (dd is good at languages and even she isn't particularly interested in the GCSE syllabus - have any of you seen it, it is pretty dire - seems to revolve around writing an essay or a speech then learning it and regurgitating it).

History, though,
is massively popular. I think dd told me in her year it was the most chosen GCSE subject (where you had a choice) which is heartening as it was very unpopular when I was at school!

I did Ancient Greek and Latin at O'level/GCSE and barely a week goes by without me using something I learned in Ancient Greek tbh. Mainly word derivations...(or questions in quizzes!)