Richmond Borough Schools Chat 7

[muminlondon2]

Lots and lots of discussions on local schools and education issues preceded this thread, including Richmond Borough Schools Chat 6.

Anyone who wants to carry on that discussion, and offer information and opinions (without being moderated by any particular individual or interest group, bearing in mind all the usual mumsnet guidelines about respect and not getting personal, etc.) - feel free.

Those A level language numbers are woefully low though aren't they. I think it's worrying that we are churning out a generation who have never learned another language properly.

Yes, agree - I don't think language study even starts to kick off until A-level or after about five years and you're reading books and newspapers or watching films, TV etc. - what are they for, otherwise?

You don't quite get the same immersive opportunities for Latin and Greek but studying both to O-level sounds brilliant. So few state schools offer Ancient Greek. Love old English, too.

What about these sixth form consortia though - shouldn't it be possible to go to Waldegrave/Teddington but pick up Class Civ at Richmond College two afternoons a week?

mum I wouldn't treat those LEH numbers as typical. Class of 2014 saw a bit of an exodus after GCSE, it was a dysfunctional cohort. And when you see the people you hope to study with moving on then you are more likely to move too. When they published destinations (and why would they have not done that last year ) then MFL was the second most popular option after the STEM subjects and a few each year do Classics. This years results will be more representative of overall trends. And overall numbers would be different, LEH had about 60, KGS would have more like 150 as would Surbiton, and Richmond College overall in each year group has 1000, not sure on the A level cohort since obviously that includes vocational etc. but you can have up to 20 tutor groups for popular subjects there like Sociology.

I think you have to get to university before you get to study languages in the way you describe mum , no literature is studied at A level anymore, emphasis is on learning the language functionally, so newspapers rather than Balzac ,who I remember inspiring many 17 year olds. There really is a trend away from A levels being the basis of university education in it's wider sense. The main driver is a shortage of markers so mark schemes have become rigid and prescriptive. There is a History module in my area and the Master's students who mark the papers are shocked by the rigid interpretation of the events studied that is required by the mark scheme. The result is a missed opportunity to broaden minds beyond the cultural stereotypes you get in the Press .

And all the private schools do make at least one language compulsory at GCSE.

The other thing to bear in mind is that some of those subjects will have had pupils studying them to AS before focusing on their main A levels. One advantage of AS. Most of the private schools seem to have decided that pupils will start on 4 A level syllabus with an option to drop one with the internal exam results being included in the UCAS reference to keep that breadth.

And the government can't claim to be making the exam system "more academically rigorous" (whether or not it is the right direction to go in) unless it tackles the issue of MFL teaching in schools. Fox I bear the scars from the preparation to regurgitate vocabulary in the GCSEs but it has at least given my daughters a basic level of skill and understanding that they can build on. Universities are increasingly taking a global perspective and valuing languages, whatever your main specialism many students will study a language as a subsidiary, and not doing one at GCSE can close down options.

Have seen today that Turing House looks set to be in Whitton - if the Facebook page "Whitton against Turing" is correct. I'm not keen on their language, seems very divisive, although I support the principle that it does seem a difficult place to get to from the area of need around Fulwell. I guess though it is now a done deal.

It links to a message from the Turing House headteacher:

'We are pleased to confirm that progress has been made on acquiring a site in Whitton that is in public sector ownership ... The alternative site the EFA had been pursuing in the Teddington area has now been ruled out, following confirmation that the EFA had not been successful in its bid for this site. It is unclear why this was the case and there is little information about who, if anybody, may have been successful."

"While the Whitton site is further from our admissions point than the one in Teddington [though Sempervirens is nearest to Brunswick Close, this year's point] we are very excited about its potential. It is a larger site than the Teddington alternative and the EFA will build brand-new facilities there [wouldn't they have had a new building at UPR?]

"... The school's admissions for 2016 have been determined and published, but if that site is confirmed we will consult on the admissions arrangements for 2017 and beyond."

Whitton Against Turing House comment: "We have privy information, the Garden Centre would be going also, they would be bought out."

And a plea from another Whitton resident:

"Turing House parents, I urge you to contest the whitton site. It's miles away and the commute for your children is an absolute nightmare. If you haven't already, try to make the trip via 281 at around 3:20pm from teddington highstreet to Whitton. THAT will be what your children face every morning and every afternoon in the opposite direction. Rammed in like sardines for well over an hour in stop/start traffic. Imagine that in the heat of summer, would you want to do it?"

The change.org petition now has over 1,550 signatures.

Thanks Mum far better details! I feel that as a "Teddington / Fulwell" parent we are being bashed by their campaign, I would rather the school was nearer the catchment area. It makes me more nervous about sending my own children there due to the extreme negativity I am reading. I don't understand what could be done about it though. It would appear that this IS the decision so we all need to work together to try and make it work? I can't see how another site could now pop up into the equation. Unless I am missing something.

I think they are furious with the council, the EFA, and perhaps also Turing House's management (RET, or whoever set the admissions policy knowing this site was under consideration), but not with parents. Whitton residents are going to lose green space and gain traffic and planning nightmares.

It's difficult to make this work just by changing the admissions policy because if they increase the proportion from Whitton, it will undermine Twickenham Academy, but if they don't, it's unfair to locals and will generate more of the traffic problems.

I completely understand why parents have applied to Turing House. But I can't see a way of supporting this, personally. If RET had been announced as a new sponsor for Twickenham Academy, on the other hand, everyone would have been happy. If it later enlarged on two sites, say to 240 pupils, it would make perfect sense - maybe its sixth form would be big enough to offer Classical Civilsation, and it would have a wider catchment area stretching to North Teddington and Fulwell as well as covering West Twickenham (an original base of support) and Whitton, without undermining the new school at RACC.

I just can't see the justification for capital spending on two different small schools on two sites so close to each other (unless TH had been a boys' school) - I can only see one, with a merged admissions policy, under one sponsor.

But please don't think I'm criticising your choices or decisions as a parent, 33george.

33george You will be aware of the strong feelings about the Clifden site, and the RISC campaign and Judicial Review. Although the official campaign kept it civilised and focused on their stated aim of inclusivity there were of course some who expressed their opposition vociferously and in some cases obnoxiously, on both sides. Now the school has opened though I think everyone realises that none of the issues relate to the children being educated there who deserve a good, happy education in a safe environment just like all our children. I have not heard of them experiencing any hostility other than the usual sort of expressions of annoyance at normal bad behaviour that you would get with any school. It is now submitting a planning application and the opposition is in the main focused on the valid concerns about the effect on traffic, most objectors realise the need to use the site effectively for educational purposes.

Although the Whitton campaign started out very hostile it fairly rapidly switched to using more respectful rhetoric in relation to Turing, largely because parents who understood the current educational environment objected to the previous divisive language. There is more room for conciliation between Turing and the local community as well, both in terms of admissions, sharing resources and responding to local concerns, whereas St RR has kept largely aloof. The impact of children travelling from afar will be lessened as well by greater inclusivity, something that is about as likely as a blue moon with St RR whose travel plan is a joke has not been given much thought. I think that the Council need to be far more innovative and proactive in minimising the impact on local residents of these schools crammed into crowded suburbs by enforcing a proper planning process on the school to manage traffic and parking, with SMART targets (Specific, measurable, agreed upon, realistic and time based, the basic measures of the quality of a plan in business).

It is a shame that a better situated site has not been secured but life doesn't always work out perfectly, and we all have to make concessions to reality. I don't believe that once Turing is established that the hostility, such as it is, will extend to the children at all.

Thank you both, very good points. I feel reassured thinking around the SRR opening - I know people sending their children there this year, who have very much liked what they have seen (and I vividly remember the campaign around that site!).
I hope that planning for travel is given serious thought, but I agree with mum that if they decide to move the catchment to pull in more Whitton children for what will after all be a school in their area, TA will I'm sure suffer. It seems that there is no right answer as the area of need is Fulwell, where we live (when you have a boy) there is very little choice, if any, especially with HA becoming more popular that too may soon not be an option in this area.

No problem getting a place at Hampton Academy once TH opens. Its last catchment on distance - first year without link policy and before its Ofsted when hopes were high - the cut-off was 10 km. Now Turing House is not only recruiting at Hampton Hill but right on HA's doorstep at Hampton Juniors.

33george that email is the one sent to parents with offers last week so we've had a few days for it to sink in but most people I've spoken to about it are philosophical. Whitton's just as close to us as the Tedfington site. They did say the bus routes would get better too. As well as the St richard Reynolds example imagine if the council announced the building of Wsldegrave, Orleans park or Teddington school in the age of Twitter. They would cause uproar too.

The RTT hasn't exactly been on top of its the game in reporting this news if you've known about this for a week jellytoto. The email also says it 'hopes' parents will confirm acceptance of their place now - no deadline, so presumably no schools can be sure until September whether those holding two offers will turn turn up at their place or the other's.

The Admissions Forum is meeting next week but instead of the usual reports on applications, this month they will be delivered verbally. Turing House has a representative on that forum - I wonder if they'll discuss admissions policies? We won't know until the minutes are published.

We've given up our other offer Mum. They've been encouraging people to do that for a while, but I can sympathise with people who are holding on to them until they're sure. It's a big decision to go for a new school. We're feeling really excited about it but I know some who are a bit more nervous.

Good for you - brave, too because from what I remember there's no certainty a new free school will even open until the pupils have walked through the door, according to conditions in funding agreements.

But I would have expected them to have stated a deadline all the same, if they still had a waiting list. It's certainly not helping any school that does have a waiting list if they can't re-offer places before 1 September (but maybe none of the affected ones do). Though I'd be surprised if TH didn't open as planned, whatever happens in Whitton.

Just to mention that all the RTT journalists are on strike which started on Friday and will go on for 12 days. That's why there are no stories on the website this week.

More on the RTT Newsquest strike:

(RTT) journalists join London Newsquest strike seeking 'London Living Wage and an office to work in'.

Media Guardian: The newspapers affected by the proposed cuts include the Guardian titles in Croydon, Sutton, Epsom, Wimbledon, Wandsworth, Balham & Tooting, Mitcham & Morden and Kingston plus the Surrey Comet and the Richmond & Twickenham Times. The company’s plan is to merge the south west and south east London editorial departments, with some reporters being required to work remotely.

mum I think that "brave" is a bit cynical and unhelpful for parents. This is a much wanted school and there is absolutely no evidence that it won't be up and running in September in the Teddington building. I know there have been some schools closed for lack of numbers /irregularities but they were not rooted in community needs and with the leadership of a tried and tested sponsor and by all accounts an inspiring Head. And for good or ill nothing is going to change at national level for another 5 years. How about focusing on the positive, i am sure parents are not so much brave as grateful that they have an exciting school option, it might have felt "braver" to have to send your child to the only option they would have had before Turing, or even to be facing like the Lowther parents, the situation where your child only has an offer of a place that you would never want to send your 11 year old child on the journey to, however good the school. it was.

I think it is brave, because it's a brand new school, and St Richard Reynolds parents were brave to try that out in the first year too - they had teachers having to double up on teaching subjects, just the same, That's why some parents held back and it didn't fill up initially, despite the strength of their campaign to get it open. And their site was more certain. I said I expected Turing House to open, and was going to add I'm not as confident about the primaries - but we shall wait and see. I'm not sure how else to phrase it, but you inferred more cynicism than I implied.

The slowness to sign up to St RR was partly due to the delays caused by the Judicial Review and the fact that many Catholic parents got offers to popular schools like Gunnersbury, Sacred Heart and Oratory. There was even apparently some whingeing from Catholic parents who didn't get into the distant Catholic Schools and were allocated to St RR, it was assumed that the diocese were saying "You wanted this school, now use it". That in it's second year it becomes oversubscribed even by those who meet the religious selection criteria demonstrates the scale of the demand for good schools as do the choked up streets on the Open Days which were attended by over 1000!

And it's outstanding OFSTED also shows that new schools can be effective from the start which must be reassuring for Turing parents. You get the impression that the St RR team are young and enthusiastic even if the Head is a bit underwhelming and that it is a fun and inspiring place for the pupils even if teachers are doubling up on subjects etc. Turing apparently have the enthusiastic teaching team and an inspiring Head.

And these new schools are out to prove themselves, the pupils are going to get a lot of focus.

Having had experience of schools that were complacently resting on their laurels and ones without the same academic reputation but where there was real leadership in taking the school places it was the latter where my DDs were happiest and achieved the best academically.

Cynicism is a bit more merited with the Primaries because the sponsors are such an unknown quantity.

What currently puts me off the head at Turing House was that he got a bad Ofsted judgement in his first headship inspection (though the school was subsequently rated Satisfactory). From his CV his previous experience before leadership positions was in sixth form teaching rather than mixed ability or younger pupils.

But, on the positive side, he's clearly learned a great deal from being a consultant and interim head, and from Ofsted as an out-of-house inspector. In person, he's clearly convinced parents, too. The RET school in Hove where he's acted as interim head recently was inspected a couple of weeks ago - a good result would back up the Outstanding at Becket Keys (though the Diocese is also co-sponsor) and Good at Bristol Free School and he'd have contributed a lot to that.

Ofsted does get it wrong sometimes, and keeps changing its framework anyway. Maybe it's just all rubbish and we should ignore ratings.

So disappointing to hear about the community losing the Udney Park fields to private developers (or even independent schools) - do we know who got it?

As for those children commuting to Whitton, to me it's nonsense, as a parent I would be so annoyed with the outcome - a brand new school to cover a black admission hole is opening in a completely different location... and the black hole will still be there. EFA/the council completely failed to address residents' needs once again, and managed to upset people from both Whitton and Teddington sides, for different reasons. It's a lose-lose situation.

Orleans park, Waldegrave, Teddington school places will be even more hunted as a result of this...

It does feel a bit nervewracking muminlondon, particularly when people start trying to undermine your decision with their own doubts. You're not the only one doing that though, which just underlines what I said about sympathising with people who need more time.
I like the Head and that's a big factor. My brother in law has worked with one of the deputies too and rates him highly. We liked the other teachers we met too. In an email recently they said 2 of their schools had been inspected recently so results should be out soon. They sounded cheerful about it though.

The other was St Andrew the Apostle. That school and Kings School Hove were inspected on the same day - the announcements/descriptions of the process are also worded identically including thanks for 'prayerful support'.

The Whitton Against Turing House Facebook has published a letter from Paul Hodgins. He says:
'Richmond is keen to protect the green spaces within the borough ... I am sure that the Council's Planning Committee would only allow build on the protected spaces in the most exceptional of circumstances.'

mum bayjay dealt with a similar comment about the Turing Head on the Twickerati thread on the potential site back in April " he brought it out of special measures (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oasis_Academy_Coulsdon) through rapid improvement, and, when it was academised by the local council, he was subsequently headhunted as a school improvement consultant as part of the London Challenge initiative. He has performed numerous interim headships as part of that role."

"It was his first headship role and he took on a challenging school – good for him. It takes time and ingenuity to turn schools around, especially when councils are determined to academise them. "

The Wikipedia page has a link to the 2007 Ofsted report which singles out for comment "The vision and commitment of the headteacher and senior management team has been crucial in setting the agenda for improvement. Through robust and rigorous self-evaluation, they have ensured that standards have risen"

It sounds to me as though he learnt a lot in a challenging role which was why he was selected for the London Challenge role. Good leaders do learn from experience. I wouldn't be put off by him having risen to the challenge of a difficult role and ultimately been successful in it, I would be focusing on all the positives you mention. It wasn't until we experienced a school with an exceptionally inspiring charismatic Head that I realised what a difference it can make, and he certainly seems to have won quite a few parents over.