New Secondary Schools for Richmond 2

[BayJay]

I'm starting this new thread because the other one of the same name has filled up.

Strange that the report talks about free schools with 50 pupils when the two secondary free school proposals that have been submitted have 72 places and 150 places respectively.

In reference to the letter in the RTT by V Herd - I have to say that as sorry as many risc supporters may be to be thought of as anti Catholic, this is how the whole campaign has come across, particularly with the first and last leaflets.

Jeremy Rodell has been campaigning for years to ensure that there is no Catholic school as the quote used in the letter demonstrates. Most of us have been quietly shaking our heads at some of the things said by risc - but sometimes, I guess enough is enough and people need to speak out. This person has said what many of us have been feeling, but we never had the courage to say so.

Tiger, people have tried to portray RISC as anti-Catholic, as an easy way of dismissing its arguments, but it is not. Catholic friends have told me that their priests have pronounced RISC as anti-Catholic in their sermons, so its not surprising that many Catholics hold that view. Those that have followed the campaign more closely, and understand the issues in depth don't hold that view. They may not agree with RISC's arguments, but they know that the campaign is not anti-Catholic.

The subject has been covered in this thread many times before.

I am saying that this is the way that the campaign has come across to many of us - you may say that this is not the intention, but the way that the campaign started (with the initial leaflet) and with the latest leaflet, it can hardly be a surprise to you.
It also really gets my back up that the risc campaign states that "fair minded Catholics" support it's cause, as if the rest of us just are not fair. It think that what would be fair is that Catholic children have a fighting chance of getting into a Catholic in-borough school. A 50% admissions criteria just would not do that - unless of course we had 2 Catholic acadamies, which I guess would be even more unpopular!!

Tiger, setting aside the tone, which is certainly hard-hitting, is there anything in RISC's latest leaflet that you think is factually incorrect?

Well, for a start, children practising other faiths are named on the admissons criteria ahead of other children, so could get places.

From memory - as have not got the leaflet in front of me...
It also ignores the fact that more than 150 Catholic children leave the borough every year to continue their education. It makes out that this is a nice extra for the Catholic population.

It implies that the Church would change the admissions policy before 2020 to ensure that the children attending the primary school in community places would not get to have priority in the secondary school.
It makes no mention of the council's commitment to finding another site, to meet the need for an additional school by 2016.

The "Anglicans, Jews, Muslims etc, 'need not apply'" is just stiring up community fears that just are not there at the moment, and never have been.

It is difficult to just 'set the tone aside' as it permeates everything.

I understand BayJay, that you favour a 50 - 50 Catholic school (should your free school not get the go-ahead) if the response to the consultation is overwhelmingly in favour of a Catholic school - ie, what the community is saying it wants, would your position change? Or, would you support two Catholic acadamies/free schools with 50% admissions to try and offer at least half of the children who currently leave the borough the opportunity to stay?

Is there a difference between 2 50% admissions acadamies and two schools - 1 Catholic and 1 community?

children practising other faiths are named on the admissons criteria ahead of other children, so could get places
Only if the school doesn't fill up with Catholic children first, and most people agree that, provided it is a well-run school, then it will. There are certainly more than enough Catholic children to fill it, though not necessarily all of them will be from within the borough. The rationale for 50:50 admissions isn't anything to do with whether the school will fill or not. It is about whether it is healthy or fair to have a school that is only filled with children of a single faith.

From memory - as have not got the leaflet in front of me...
Here it is.

It also ignores the fact that more than 150 Catholic children leave the borough every year to continue their education
It does talk about how the Linked School Policy has been discriminating against them, and how that policy is now set to change.

It makes out that this is a nice extra for the Catholic population.
Yes, it does. I think many people would agree with that.

It implies that the Church would change the admissions policy before 2020 to ensure that the children attending the primary school in community places would not get to have priority in the secondary school.
It says the "church-controlled governing bodies would be able to change the admission rules in the meantime." There is no evidence that they would do that, but the leaflet is correct that they would have the power to do so if they wanted to.

The "Anglicans, Jews, Muslims etc, 'need not apply'" is just stiring up community fears that just are not there at the moment, and never have been.
But it is an accurate reflection of the admissions policy. To me this is like saying that the little boy in the Emperors New Clothes story is just stirring up anti-imperialism.

It is difficult to just 'set the tone aside' as it permeates everything.
Yes, the tone is strong. I think that reflects RISC's frustration with the situation, and their desire to wake people up to it.

would your position change?
Tiger, 50:50 admissions for new faith schools are now written into Education law so no, my position wouldn't change. I'd be happy to see a Catholic academy or free school in addition to a community school, and I hope that, if the VA bid fails, then the Diocese propose one. If they don't propose one, then I hope the Catholic community will propose one instead. The Free School legislation would allow them to do that.

would you support two Catholic acadamies/free schools with 50% admissions to try and offer at least half of the children who currently leave the borough the opportunity to stay?
I wouldn't oppose a second Catholic academy if the proposers could demonstrate the demand.

Is there a difference between 2 50% admissions acadamies and two schools - 1 Catholic and 1 community?
Yes, many people prefer non-denominational schools.

Is there a difference between 2 50% admissions acadamies and two schools - 1 Catholic and 1 community?
Sorry, that last bit didn't really answer your question (it was slightly hurried as dinner was on the table!). What I should have said was that within 2 50:50 academies, children of different faiths would mix together. With two separate schools, one VA and the other community, they would only mix together in one of the schools. So yes, there is a difference.

Tiger - The leaflet presented an objective (most people inc Catholics in my neighbourhood felt that) view this debate that many were not familiar with.

Is there a difference between 2 50% admissions acadamies and two schools - 1 Catholic and 1 community? - Yes there is - replace schools with hospitals and libraries and other state places in your statement and you will get your answer.
The Hampton Church school as well as a Catholic school in Buckinghamshire with 100% inclusive admissions are showing that faith schools and community inclusion are possible!

'there are more than enough Catholic children to fill it' - yes, but you would still want to deny them the opportunity to continue their Catholic education in their borough.

I think, as you said up thread, there are many opinions within risc - I am hoping the compomise may be two schools - one a Catholic school, and the other a community school - risc in their very first leaflet talked about the 'injustice of the only currently available school site being 'given' to the Catholic church' (or something like that) just maybe if your free school is given the go-ahead or another school is proposed, perhaps a great majority of risc supporters would by happy.

That would still not please Jeremy Rodell and some of his more faithful followers (if you excuse the phrase) as some in risc do not want to see a Catholic school at all, but perhaps many others would feel that this is fair.

Tiger, I think JR's position is in line with RISC's official position, that a Catholic school with 100% open admissions (like this one) would be fine. You're probably right that some other RISC supporters wouldn't be happy with any kind of state funded faith school, but they are perfectly entitled to that opinion, and it doesn't automatically mean they're anti-religious, just anti-state-funded-faith-schools.

Maybe he has been misquoted in the press before then - as he has spoken against a Catholic school in Richmond for some years.

Sorry, I know that you don't speak on behalf of JR.

I will be interested to see what comes out of the consultation and if risc have as much support as they think they do. In that the Catholic population are only 10 - 14% of the community make-up I would imagine that we will not be in the majority.
If on the other hand there is poor response from risc supporters and a good number of Catholics and non-catholics who support a Catholic school that would send out a good signal about who in the community cares about the make up of this particular school.

Akhan, the point I was making about, for example 2 Catholic academies rather than 1 VA school and 1 school of another make-up, is that the numbers of Catholic children served would remain the same but it would give less choice to those who do not want a faith school.
There is the demand for more than 150 Catholic school places, not less - I continue to think that 1 Catholic VA school and another school is the fairest option.

Tiger, no, I don't speak on behalf of JR, but I am willing to defend him if I think he is being unfairly treated. It takes a lot of guts to take on a campaign of this nature, with all its complexities, and many people are grateful to him for having taken it on.

Catholic friends have told me that their priests have pronounced RISC as anti-Catholic in their sermons, so its not surprising that many Catholics hold that view

BayJay I have to say I have been in many Catholic churches within the borough over the last few months and I have never heard a single, not one, priest ever say anything of this nature to the congregation. However I have seen and heard the reaction of many many catholics after reading the RISC camapign leaflets particulalry the latest one which personally I have to say I find deeply disturbing. Catholics have been extemely upset by the RISC campaign. We are a peaceful community and have lived, studdied and worked alongside others with no hostility for many years. I personally have felt deeply disturbed by what i have seen happening over the last few months. Last week I have heard from friends that Jeremy Rodell himself was outside a local primary school in Whitton (which is directly opposite a Catholic primary school) handing out the above mentioned leaflets as both Catholic and non catholic children arrived to school. How can it possibly be said that this is not attempting to divide a peaceful community and turn parent against parent, school against school.How is this truly beneficial to the community in any way?

I have never heard a single, not one, priest ever say anything of this nature to the congregation
I'm glad about that Mir4. Others have.

I have seen and heard the reaction of many many catholics after reading the RISC camapign leaflets particulalry the latest one which personally I have to say I find deeply disturbing
It is unsettling, but is there anything in it that you think is factually incorrect?

attempting to divide a peaceful community
Some would say the community is already divided when children of different religions are schooled separately, and that inclusive schools bridge that divide.

Mir4. Whether you agree or not, RISC exists because of concerns of a lot of people with diverse background in the borough about an exclusive Catholic VA school.

The Inclusive school petition presented at the Council meeting on 13 Sep www.richmondinclusiveschools.org.uk/files/view/other-useful-documents/Council_speech_13_Sep_11.pdf made it clear that RISC is not against a Catholic school and the only issue here is inclusive admission.

A lot of efforts were then made over the last 6 months both publically and in individual meetings to explore a win-win solution in the interest of enriching choice and diversity with inclusivity and communal harmony.

Despite the numerous opportunities presented for a compromise solution ( including through feedback sent during the pre statutory consultation) , it is deeply upsetting to a lot of people that the Catholic VA school proposal have ignored their request for inclusivity. The Diocese statutory proposal published in RTT confirmed that and squashed a lot of hopes for ending this division in the community.

Of course I am still hoping that things change between now and 24th May in the wider interests of everyone.

Whitton community is being divided by the VA school - Why should my kids from Nelson not be able to go to a new school at Clifden Road along with my neighbours from St Edmunds? If there is a free school there, everyone from our lane could go together to the same school.

Chris - Thanks for sharing the Lib Dems Councillor Group statement. Have I understood it correctly that if they say that the site was purchased to provide local schol places, they should use it for a local community school?

Jeev: the new school would be an academy or a free school but I am unclear as to who decides which; on what grounds; or what difference it makes in practice (I haven?t been paying sufficiently detailed attention to recent changes). BayJay can enlighten us I expect.

The New Local School would either way be a leading contender, indeed an obvious choice, but if it was to be an Academy there would be a formal competition, consultations, etc and other bids would no doubt emerge including perhaps a Catholic one. The judge would be the Council, I think, though Kingston used an independent adjudicator to pick a sponsor for the proposed N Kingston school (which has a site, albeit cramped, but no money and so no date for opening).

If it was to be a Free School the competition would be for the DfE to judge without any local input.

Either way the sponsor would be able to select up to 50 % on its criteria (including ?aptitude? but not ?intelligence). The inclusivity of these criteria would be only one of several grounds on which the choice would be made. The Kingston adjudication compared the 2 bids on:

Effect on standards and contribution to school improvement;

School Characteristics: Size of School; Extended School; Specialism; Admissions;
Need for places - parental demand and diversity of places; and
SEN

BayJay: the assumption of ?50 pupils per year group? per Free School comes from the Council?s consultation document:

' . . 3.11 Three of the four proposals in development for free schools to be established within the borough in September 2013 would include secondary-phase provision and, if all three were to be approved, 150 additional places would be provided. The forecasts in the appendix assume that two of the proposals will be approved and that the schools will be popular with local parents.' (p.14)

So the New Local School was excluded from the forecasts.

the new school would be an academy or a free school but I am unclear as to who decides which
Chris my understanding is that if the council has an available site, and there is an approved free school proposal that matches the site, then the DfE can decide to put the Free School on that site. If the council has a site, but there is no approved free school proposal, then they will need to invite bids from academy providers.

Kingston were following the process in Part A of this doc for selecting a new school via a competition. I don't know how much of that process still applies under the new Education Act.

the assumption of ?50 pupils per year group? per Free School comes from the Council?s consultation document
Yes, and that is based on the council's secondary school forecast from November, i.e. out of date information. I'm just surprised the report didn't clarify that the reality doesn't match the council's November figures.

Here is the November paragraph for the record: ? . . 4.13 Free schools: There are three proposals in development for free schools to be established within the borough in September 2013 and each would include secondary-phase provision. The Secretary of State recently stated that he would like to see free schools established London ?in areas such as Kingston, Sutton and Richmond, where there is said to be a shortage of places? and, if all three were to be approved, 150 additional places would be provided. The forecasts in Appendix 1 assume that two of the proposals will be approved and that the schools will be popular with local parents.?

21 November 2011 Cabinet paper: Secondary School Places

Aa I have said before, I think Gove was merely being polite to his audience when he said this at a party meeting, so we should not attach any weight to it. The 'up to 150 places' forecast comes from the Council and not from him; it is as BayJay says out of date. In fact we have no way of forecasting how many free school places will be created by September 2016 say. My view is that the most likely exact number is zero, zilch, 0 but I would not care to attach a probability to that forecast.

Thanks for the vote of confidence Chris . Needless to say, I have a different opinion.

I do agree that neither council nor lib dem forecasts should be assuming that any free schools will be approved, but they do need to recognise the possibility that they may be.

Council have just sent out the following press release. I don't have a link for it yet:

News: Another new secondary school considered for borough

A new centre of educational excellence could be established at Richmond upon Thames College , including the creation of a new secondary school.

Richmond Council has agreed to work in partnership with the College to carry out a full feasibility study, considering all the options available for the Egerton Road site.

Over the past year this Council has emphasised its commitment to increasing secondary school capacity in order to ensure quality and choice for all residents. As demand for borough primary schools increases; the quality improves across current secondary schools and sixth forms are created, a higher percentage of local families are choosing a Richmond secondary school.

Since January, residents have been consulted over plans for one new school on the Clifden site. However, there will still be a longer-term demand for additional places. Over the next six months Richmond upon Thames College will work with the Council to consider all the options to create a new educational vision for the College, including what can be done to improve the college buildings and investigate if a new secondary school could be accommodated on the site.

Cllr Paul Hodgins, Richmond Council Cabinet Member for Schools, said:

?There has been much debate over the past few months about the prospect of a new secondary on the Clifden site, and rightly so. Few issues are as important to our borough as education. We have always said that we may need two new secondary schools in the medium to long term to meet future demand and this partnership opportunity provides us with the chance to explore the possibilities.

?We are already working closely with Richmond upon Thames College . The College already provides a very broad range of excellent educational options for students and we are keen to work with them to protect and develop their unique and important role in the borough.

?The feasibility study will look at all the options. It will not just consider creating a new secondary school but will look at how we can work together to make the best use of the site ? with the aim of creating a high quality secondary and post-16 educational centre of excellence that will benefit the whole of Richmond upon Thames .?

David Ansell, Principal at Richmond upon Thames College , added:

?The College is delighted to be working with Richmond Council on this feasibility study. The opportunity to be part of an educational centre of excellence with the College working in direct partnership with a new secondary school is one we look forward to exploring.?

How wonderful - so there is the possiblity of two schools! Assuming one is Catholic school and one a community school, that should keep most people happy.

I am delighted!

Good news BayJay but when will this school open - " is it 2016 if need be" ? as claimed in Council's earlier reports.