New Secondary Schools for Richmond 2

[BayJay]

I'm starting this new thread because the other one of the same name has filled up.

seenbutnotheard - I think the problem we have is that many of the opponents of the Catholic VA are opposed to it in principle - they are opposed to over-subscription criteria allocating places based on membership and/or practice of the relevant faith. That can be a perfectly honorable position but in this local context it appears to be inhibiting a rational discussion of the apparently one viable option - the Catholic VA school - on educational and economic grounds. Ironically, their fundamentalism against a Catholic school is clouding their reasoning.
Bayjay does now seem to be interested in my earlier suggestion of the Catholic VA school voluntarily taking non-Catholic children (for a period I suggested) so that is progress.

Is there any reason why Catholic Church can't apply to open a free school? I am a bit puzzled by the fact that the Maharishis seem to be the only show in town at Oldfield House and the Council seems to only be talking to them about the site when there are so many other potential uses of that site, including a Catholic school, a new primary school for Hampton (where there has been a big shortage of places this year), or a school for the children who get excluded from the Academies once all the secondary schools have become Academies and are allowed to do that ie. in a few months time the way things seem to be going. Lovely and relaxing as doing TM twice a day sounds, it has rather sprung from nowhere and I wonder if such a school would just attract Maharishi-inclined parents to move in to Hampton and environs from elsewhere rather than lots of local parents suddenly deciding it is just what they want? I grew up in Hampton so I do know a bit about the indigenous population there!

"Is there any reason why Catholic Church can't apply to open a free school?"
LottieProsser, they could do that, but would have to have 50:50 admissions, which they don't want. Only the VA route can get them better than 50:50 admissions.

"Bayjay does now seem to be interested in my earlier suggestion of the Catholic VA school voluntarily taking non-Catholic children (for a period I suggested) so that is progress"
Florist, I didn't express an opinion. I was musing about what might be going on behind the scenes. If the outcome is a VA school with a percentage of open admissions then of course that is better than one without any open admissions at all. However, there would be nothing to stop the VA governing body from changing the admissions policy once the school was open, so for that reason I'd prefer an Academy.

Florist - you are very dogged but you never address the fact that the actual statistics appear to show that masses and masses of local children are going to be without any secondary school place in a few years time. My reasoning has never been in the least clouded but the only rational option I can see on "educational and economic grounds" is not to give away a prime site for 125 years to an institution that wants to shut 90% of local children out. You would be welcome to a VA school is there was lots of room but there isn't. There needs to be a comprehensive plan to accommodate everyone before any group, including Catholics, gets to go off and huddle exclusively.

An 'inclusive' school will also shut 90% of the borough's children out as it will only take the children living pretty much on it's doorstep!

A Catholic VA school would at least take children from accross the borough - those children just happen to be Catholic and there is no in-borough Catholic secondary school for them at the moment.

"the Council seems to only be talking to them about the site when there are so many other potential uses of that site"
LottieProsser, the council has to talk to potential Free School providers if they express an interest in a site. If they don't then the Government can simply aquire the land and give it away on their behalf. However, if another Free School expressed interest in the same site, they would no doubt talk to them too. What they're unlikely to do is create any more new maintained schools of their own as they want to move towards a commissioning model, where all of the schools are Academies/Free Schools that buy in services.

I also don't think that people can discount the imformation that has been provided by the Director of Education, Children's and Cultural Services and the Head of School Commissioning.
These people have not been just employed by the Conservatives, they have been in post for many years, and advised the last Lib Dem council too.

I think there would be an oversupply of places with a Catholic VA school. If it attracts all those currently travelling out of borough it will need less selective' admissions criteria. As a new school it won't have the kudos or tradition of other Catholic schools. If it at least attracts those who would otherwise have gone locally to Hounslow, then Gumley etc. will lose a proportion of their pupils (and funds and teachers unless they fill up with non-Catholics.

Alternatively there could be a double-squeeze on girls continuing to prefer Waldegrave and Gumley leaving a boy-dominated school - having a self-perpetuating effect and off-putting to many.

Meanwhile, locals who fail to get a place in oversubscribed Orleans or Twick Academy when it fills up will have to schlepp over to Sheen if they can't go private. A lot of tension is sure to develop.

" also don't think that people can discount the imformation that has been provided by the Director of Education, Children's and Cultural Services and the Head of School Commissioning."

Yes, but equally they need to respond appropriately to legitimate new information, either to include it in their forecasts, or to explain why it is not included.

An oversupply of Catholic places that should say

Gumley, St Mark's etc are massively oversubscribed.

If the new school did not attract Catholic children (not that I think this would be the case) it would have to offer it's remaing places to non-catholics, not to do so would be unlawful.

The RISC paper has shown just how much the birth rates have increased outside of Richmond - in-borough children who currently have to travel outside of Richmond for their schooling will need to have a place here.

muminlondon - I am sure if the Catholic diocese agrees to such a school it would be on the basis that there won't be an oversupply of Catholic places for Catholic children. Besides, I thought that was what some people wanted: open admissions to Catholic schools - that would of course be the place if there was such an over supply so maybe you should welcome such an outcome (which I think unlikely) rather than decry it.

The Council will not be giving away land for 125 years - any least would require any provider on the site to provide quality education. What the Council is giving away if the Catholic school goes ahead is 10% of ongoing capital costs. Please don't make this a Catholic them and a 90% us sort of debate.

But it's there is a 'market' within Catholic schools depending on their desirability/exclusivity - Oratory and Vaughan at the top, perhaps? The same top slicing and sideways squeezes and effect from neighbouring areas will happen as for community schools with universal admissions. And don't underestimate the 'boy-dominated' effect because I would certainly bet a fiver on that.

muminlondon - for 20 years and more now governments of both parties have promoted a market in state education so I don't disagree with your main point but it is not just a Catholic school phenomenon. Parents do seek to exercise choice about which school best suits their children's needs.

The issue here is that parents are not sending their children to existing "inclusive" state non faith schools in Richmond but there is an option of a provider coming in to Richmond which stands a good chance of offering a school - a Catholic VA school - that would be chosen by 100s of Richmond parents. That the school would not be open to all Richmond parents who were not of that faith doesn't undermine it as an option - just as a new grammar school would not be open to all.

Florist, I agree that both parties in the last 20 years have created a fractured and complex system which has only exacerbated inequalities in society. It's the concept of 'choice' - actually, we just want one choice, just a place in a good - not even outstanding - local school. But some have many choices, while many in our relatively affluent (on average) borough have no choice. Soon that won't even mean a bad local school, just no local school at all. The link system creates it own anomalies - but even without it, there will soon be people with no place.

But the council will soon lose even more power over schools. Resources are limited. RISC is at least challenging the council after a very patronising dismissal of people's legitimate concerns by its leader, who no doubt was privately educated. But no, I'm not a spokesperson for RISC either, and ideally there would be two new schools which could include a Catholic one.

This has of course been expressed many times before.

muminlondon I sympathise with what you say. So, if there were two new schools what characteristics would the new non faith "inclusive" school have to have to meet the needs of parents like you.

muminlondon - I agree with you that for years under different parties and officers, the council has not meet our expectations in relation to secondary schools. What frustrates me most is that the leader and my local Tory councillor cannot relate to our challenges and dismiss our arguments - it seems to be "my way or highway attitude" . There is also no point reaching to the Council officers who have to defend this political strategy. I am not sure who we can rely to address the concerns of other minorities in consultation.

It would probably be a bit like Orleans Park, Teddington and Grey Court but just a little smaller - non-selective, representative of the local area, inclusive and multi-faith, co-ed and balanced between genders, safe, caring, encouraging imaginative and independent thought, cooperation and self-discipline. Bringing out the potential in everyone. All the things that are great about the schools I have mentioned. It's not rocket science.

Although the Clifden school in particular could be a boys' school so that Orleans and Teddington could have a more balanced gender mix.

"its leader, who no doubt was privately educated"
Muminlondon, one thing I found out recently is that you can log into Who's Who using your RuT Library card number. Just to clarify, according to Lord True's entry he went to Nottingham High School. Of course, I don't like to get too personal on this thread, but as its published information I'll make an exception.

BayJay - I would think very carefully if this is the sort of route that you want to go down, given some of the members of the RISC organising committee, including Jeremy Rodell and their school backgrounds...

People don't have choice over which school they went to. It's usually their parents who decide at the age of 5 or 11 . I can't see how this is at all relevant to any of the arguments on either side.

I agree Wimpykid

wimpykid,seenbutnotheard, I agree that its not particularly relevant. I wasn't saying that it was. I was just clarifying the information. It looks like a fairly ordinary private school to me.

seenbutnotheard, I have no idea about the educational backgrounds of the RISC organising committee. JR's university education is on his LinkedIn profile, but I've seen nothing else published and don't really care.

It is interesting that our library cards give us access to Who's Who though, isn't it? I think so.