New Secondary Schools for Richmond 2

[BayJay]

I'm starting this new thread because the other one of the same name has filled up.

Wimpykid I fully understand and share your concern and agree that no child should do an awkward journey to go to school. But in some cases I have seen parents sending their kids from Twickenham to popular Catholic schools like London Oratory because they feel it is worth the hardship and I do respect their choice. I would love to see Catholics as part of our eductaion system and it saddens me when my kids who developed friendship with our Catholic neighbours in nursery, cannot continue that at primary. It would be great to see more Catholic kids at community schools and if there is a Catholic school at Clifden, for it to have both Catholics and non Catholics for better social cohesion. It is wrong to believe that our academies were built for everyone but Catholics - in fact when they were being established they were promised support from all their local primary schools including the Catholic schools. So the unused spaces in TA are for Catholics as well. Yes there is increase in birth rates in neighbouring boroughs - but again that is a problem for everyone in the community. The problem of ever increasing demand for school places and limited supply of sites is for everyone so why should 1 group get excusive privelege. It is for you to decide whether the need for segregated schooling is far greater than the need for an integrated communal and inclusive solution.

My main focus in all this is that there should be enough local places for everyone before we give sites away to special interest groups. By "local" I mean fairly close to where they live and that could be in a different London Borough which may well be closer than the other side of the same London Borough. Richmond Council will not be able to turn round in 5 years time and say "We made a mistake and we need Clifden back" so I am not going to be reassured until I see another site for a community school in the Twickenham area and an attempt to tackle the difficulties that are going to be faced by children who will soon be unable to get into any local secondary school (ie. not RPA when they live in Hampton Hill), through no choice of their own.

Wimpy Kid - I do have sympathy for the parents of boys of St. James - a friend of mine wanted her son to go on to Teddington School which was very nearby but couldn't send him there because of the linked schools system. But it seems highly likely that the linked schools system is about to be abolished so places will go to whoever is nearest from next year. Apart from St James I am not aware of any parts of the borough where children from Catholic schools have been unable to go to their local secondary school but if that situation exists I hope it will be corrected. If parents of Catholic children choose to send them on long difficult journeys to avoid going to a local secondary school with everyone else I have little sympathy for the parents, although I have plenty of sympathy for their children.

Secondary schools that have fewer than 5 forms of entry are not able to provide a broad curriculum, so no, we won't be looking at small sites. Hwoever, we are starting to identify some alternative large sites that we could use.

I hope Bay Jay that you will be able to release that information about potential sites and sponsors soon so that you can give a credible school for people to express an interest in when they sign up on your site. Otherwise there is a danger that it could become misconstrued as purely another petition against the Catholic option. I really do genuinly wish you well in your search for another site as I do feel that both these schools have something very valuable to offer the community. I think though too it is well worth keeping options open for a smaller free school on one of the proposed (already available) sites. It may well be easier to find a sponsor for a smaller project as there is only one other 5 form enty free school in the country at the present time. Schools have proven that a very good broad and balanced curriculum can be provided with as little as 1,2,3 form entry, you only have to look at some of the private schools and other free schools around the country to see what can be achieved with these numbers.

Parrich It is preposterous for the Council to imply that kids from these schools ( a high % are on free school meals) will be able to afford and make the awkward journey from Hampton / Heathfield or Whitton to RPA.

Just to say i think that transport is subsidized or even free for school age children on the busses. But please correct me if i am wrong here! It is really hard making any journey to school but this has been the expereince of Catholic children for many years, with many making much longer journeys even to reach out of borough schools. .It would certainly be great if these fears can be resolved for all of us. If there is a succesful candidte for the Hampton free school site would this make a difference in your area? Is it something you would consider and if so what type of school would you like to see there?

Mir4, you seem very determined to rubbish the idea of a larger free school without fully knowing or understanding the facts.

So far, most of the free schools have been at primary level - so it's hardly surprising that most of them aren't anywhere approaching 5 form entry!

A private school can function perfectly well on a small scale for two very important reasons. The first is that it is able to select its candidates. This means it doesn't need to cater for a such broad spectrum of abilities. So you end up with very academic private schools, middling-academic private schools and less-academic private schools. A comprehensive school will, by definition, need to cater for an A* top set down to children for whom a purely vocational path may be more appropriate. If you only have three forms of entry this gets very tricky to manage. Secondly, funding. A private school can afford to fund subjects with a low take-up purely to offer a wide curriculum. A state school wouldn't be able to offer say, Spanish, if only 10 candidates were willing and able to study it.

A case in point is Christ's which has been suffering from not having a large enough intake. Hence it is expanding.

Mir4, a free school proposal needs to show demand for a school in a particular area. It doesn't have to specify a site; that can be determined later, once the proposal has been accepted by the Government.

Also, just to correct you on one point Mir4, there is actually another 5 form entry Free School approved to open in September 2012: www.becketkeys.org/.

Really interesting to see the admissions criteria for that new Church of England Free School BayJay. It has 4 feeder schools.

Of the 150 places available, 75 are purely Faith based.

Of the remaining 75 places available, a further 51 are available to the 2 feeder schools which are themselves 100% faith based admissions.
12 go to the other CofE feeder school (which is less selective) and 12 to the non-denominational feeder.

So, at a guess, at the very least 126 of the places are likely to go to CofE families, possibly more - not quite what the Government would have had in mind I guess.

I have wondered myself, in the whole Academy debate, whether the Catholic Church could have saved itself some money by opting for an Academy with Catholic feeder schools. Not that I am advocating that and I think the Church and church community are happy to pay their way as per the VA school route.

I really do wish you good luck with your Free School application (although, obviously with another site [bwink])

Thanks seenbutnotheard. I appreciate you saying that.

Mir4, you seem very determined to rubbish the idea of a larger free school without fully knowing or understanding the facts.

Little Miss Muppet please read carefully what I have actually said. I genuinely (as Seenbutnotheard) do wish BJ success with Free school application (but obv for another site) . It would be fantastic if out of all this we all achieve something that gives everybody the choice they desire. I think a school with a science special ism would be popular in one of the areas of our borough that currently have the most limited choice. I have asked if opening a smaller school has been considered on one of the existing proposed sites only because it would be a great shame if the focus was on the Clifden site alone and opportunities were potentially missed elsewhere in the borough. Listening to what people have said there may not be enough support for all of the existing free school proposals locally. This could mean that additional provision in the borough is severely delayed until new pro posers go through the process. From reading about the process it certainly seems very difficult with (if what I have read is accurate) only 40 applications being successful in phase 1 out of 323 applications and 8 put on hold .I don't know the figures for unsuccessful candidates in wave 2 but understand that 55 were approved.

Another difficulty with the size of the school if it was to be aimed solely for the Clifden site is implied in section 9 of the Academies act:-
The secretary of state must take into account what the impact of establishing an additional school would be likely to be on maintained schools, academies and institutions within the further education sector in the area in which the additional school is (or proposed to be) situated .
Obv with the proximity to the other local schools (less than half a mile from Orleans Park, mile to Waldegrave, proximity of Twick academy)this could be an issue for a Free school on the Clifden site. Also the already well published potential effect on the academies could be an issue if a larger school is applied for. Apparently the DfE will engage local authorities to understand local context and circumstances before making a decision.
Now the secretary of state does base his decisions on a case by case basis so nothing is set in stone but it may give a new proposal more edge if timing of opening, pupil numbers and site are planned carefully so that they do not impact on surrounding schools. Also I think it is important to bear in mind that the Government will want to be able to justify the cost to the UK taxpayer and will be keen that the proposal is cost effective not only for the Government but also the sponsor

So I am def not rubbishing the idea of Bay Jays free school. On the contrary with the right timing in the right location with the right numbers it has a lot of potential so it is important to get those things right to make it viable as a proposal. I do think there is room for both the Catholic objective of a VA school and your objectives for a Free school , but much may come down to timing. The issue is wether a bid now for an existing (but smaller) Free school site would be more successful in the current climate or perhaps waiting and proposing a larger school aimed for 2016 opening which might fit in better with the councils forecast and hence may have more success.

Mir4 - I do respect your preference for a Catholic VA school. You are ofcourse entitled to your opinion, but it is premature to asume that a Catholic VA school is the only option for a school at Clifden Road. I do not believe that it is - certainly a Catholic academy or a community school also needs to be considered. The Council's secondary school places projections and strategy as they currently stand are highly questionable. They have not adequately evaluated the risks associated with all the multiple complex scenarios. The current consultation thankfully gives the Council the opportunity to review all our opinions and and its secondary school plans. It will then be able to determine the best way a school at Clifden Road can serve the entire community.

Mir4 - thanks for your thoughts. I'm going to hold back from discussing details here if you don't mind. We have a sponsor now, so there will be some formal communications coming out shortly.

It is preposterous for the Council to imply that kids from these schools ( a high % are on free school meals) will be able to afford and make the awkward journey from Hampton / Heathfield or Whitton to RPA Mir 4 - you seem to be remarkably naive about the challenges faced by us going to local schools in these areas. The no of children form disadvantaged backgrounds is in double digits in most of these schools (as high as 34%), compared to Catholic primaries where it is only 3%. Most of them cannot have the privilege of a private school or a Church funded VA school . There are significant problems of quality and capacity at secondary level and shortage of finance and sites. To provide a Catholic VA school at Clifden ( that is centrally located for these schools) as the top priority, before these issues have been fully resolved, can only damage the interests of these children who need more help.

Another interesting fact I saw in these Council report www.richmond.gov.uk/cypt_commissioning.htm was that the average FSM across all Richmond state secondaries is 16.2% and 25% in the 3 academies. A Catholic VA secondary could only have 3% if it draws from Catholic primaries. Exclusivity for some to avoid the masses is a real mockery of choice and diversity for others !

parrich - I suspect that the FSM % would probably be slightly higher at secondary level due to the small number of (definitely not fsm!) children that will go private at that stage in their education.

But I think you've struck the nail on the head as to why a Catholic secondary very specifically "in borough" is so very desirable. You really couldn't get a more fabulous and exclusive catchment, could you? It's the reason why so many parents will be willing to send their children to an untested school. They'll be surrounded by all those lovely children from Barnes, Richmond and Teddington. What could possibly go wrong?

Interestingly, I do know a number of Catholics who shudder at the thought of even Teddington or Orleans. They will recount incidents that happened many years ago as evidence of how rough some of the children are, and consequently how the schools are no-go areas for their offspring. Incidentally, these conversations were with people who are currently campaigning very hard for the Catholic secondary.

It's a difficult one, though. No one really wants their pfb rubbing shoulders with too many disadvantaged kids. Not if they're honest, anyway. It's a sentiment felt by most middle class parents in the borough whatever their religion.

Little MissMuppet - A Catholic secondary is desirable for faith reasons. Your cynicism doesn't surprise me, but at this stage of the debate you would think these comments would have dried up now.

h2ohno - the thing is, given a straightforward choice between a Catholic school and a non-Catholic one - I also would prefer a Catholic one. The trouble is that faith school selection policies have muddied the water to such an extent that they now appeal for a multitude of other reasons.

You have to question why Catholics are so determined to ensure that this new school has 100% faith-based admissions. The answer we are given is that if the school offers a large number of community places then there will be insufficient places for Catholic children. But why would that be? Why would non-Catholics and even atheists choose to send their children to a Catholic school in Clifden Road?

• because it is their most local school
• because they not yet convinced about the new academies. That 25% FSM figure isn't helping to convince them
• because much of the intake will still be faith-based selective. They know that children from stable Catholic families are very likely to be taking their education seriously
• the ethos and moral structure of Catholic schools is appealing

Why would these reasons NOT also be applicable to Catholics? Does the Catholic faith in someway exempt people

Some news about Twickenham Academy and Hampton Academy. They both have approval for opening Sixth Forms in September 2012.

oops - sorry, kicked return too soon!

But I was trying to say that Catholics are as human as any one else in society. I know that the above points appeal to me. Of course they do.

What gets uncomfortable in all of this debate is the moral high ground which gets taken. We all know that religious people are meant to be inherently good, after all, don't we? But it mustn't mean that others aren't allowed to question such people.

As a non-Catholic who got excellent education in an inclusive Catholic school, I cant help promoting the advantages of an inclusive Catholic school. Especially in the multi polar and multi cultural global environment we live and work in. Our multi faith local community united around the school and its motto - " Love your neighbours as your self".

An inclusive Catholic education is inspired by the Catholic faith and has a strong focus on character building, national integration and regard for the needs of the underprivileged. I am going to feedback this into the Diocese consultation and sincerely request them to propose an inclusive Catholic school. It could naturally attract more Catholics than non-catholics, but will give the community the real choice and diversity with inclusivity and harmony. I would encourage anyone else who feels the same to provide similar feedback in the consultations.

gmsing - your intent is laudable. I will support an inclusive Catholic school and do know some Catholic neighbours who are in favour of community inclusion. We can only pray that the wider Catholic community opens its hearts and minds.

From a letter in today?s Guardian:

More than 100 secondary schools face being closed and reopened as academies for failing to meet government targets (Report, 27 January). Yet of the 200 schools with the lowest percentage of pupils achieving five or more GCSEs at grades A* to C, 53 are academies. The worst performing school is an academy in Poole , which managed to reduce the percentage of pupils achieving the standard from 21% for its predecessor school, to 3% now. Of the 200 best performers , only one is an academy. The government's own data would appear to indicate that the policy of forcing failing schools to become academies is a recipe for failure . .

Unfair? No doubt - but these opinions will be widely read and widely held across Twickenham, the new home of the Guardianistas aka ?the new N10".

Chris - I agree that's very unfair. Those schools would have been turned into academies because they were already failing, in an effort to turn them round. Whether its a solution or not is a matter for debate, but its wrong of the article to imply through misuse of statistics that it was the academy status that caused the problem.

BayJay: No: TPA and HA were ?academied? under the old, Labour, scheme (= taken over by an external agency) because Government ruled that only academies would get generous capital grants for new buildings. The then Lib Dem council would have preferred to keep them in what they termed the ?Richmond family of schools?. I know this from what was said in the Lib Dem group at the time.

It is important to remember the difference between the old scheme and that which applies now, which converts council schools into direct grant schools. One thing hasn?t changed however: the large financial incentives paid to those schools who jump through whichever hoop it is that government is holding up at the time.

Encouraging/requiring the schools academied by the Labour scheme to style themselves ?academies? even if they were notoriously UNacademic may have seemed a brilliant PR wheeze at the time but of course it has back-fired: the word ?academy? has been devalued just like ?university?, which now means any old college, good or bad.

I'm slightly bemused at the link to an article written 8 years ago, Chris! I wonder if it's because you are rather proud to have found your name in print ?

I'm not sure that the residents of Twickenham will be judging the performance of the academies on some generic Guardian article. I'd like to think they are slightly more objective in their reasoning. Or maybe I'm only saying that because I'm more of a Telegraph person myself...

Chris - I was under the impression that the LibDems were all for the original three academies - I can't remember Malcolm Eady having a bad word to say about them - indeed I heard him speak very passionately about why this would be a good thing for Whitton School at the time of the LibDem consultation.
twickenhamlibdems.co.uk/en/article/2009/026453/cabinet-decision-confirms-hcc-and-whitton-school-as-academies

Are you saying that in fact the LibDems did not want the change over to academies and were pro them for purely financial gain?
This really was not the impression that I was given at the time...