New Secondary Schools for Richmond 2

[BayJay]

I'm starting this new thread because the other one of the same name has filled up.

Fair point as always Bayjay though there was no apology. Either way it was one of a number of other offensive remarks on this long and otherwise interesting thread. We're talking about a school after all - I am not going to quit this site but if I may one last thought. For those opposing the Catholic VA option (which seems to me to be the only viable short term option) you'd be advised to focus on improving the Church's offer (10 primary places) than opposing outright. If you went for 10 primary and an additional 15 at secondary that might be achievable.
I will watch with interest.

now not not

Little Miss Muppett - I agree that there are probably some non-Catholics at Sacred Heart as, despite being the smallest school in Teddington, I have known several people who were moving back into the area from abroad being told it was the only school where they could get a place in Yrs 5 or 6 despite the fact that they weren't Catholic. One of the many things we aren't being told by the consultation is the number of non-Catholics amongst the 240 or so Yr 6s in Catholic primary schools for whom this school at Clifden is proposed to be provided.

Mum in London - also agree with what you say about lack of information about how many Catholics go private from primary schools which is also skewing the statistics as a similar percentage will probably continue to do so even if there is a new school at Clifden.

When you start to look in detail at destinations from each Catholic primary school there are clearly some strong existing links with no evidence of difficulty getting into nearby Catholic schools yet even if they are in the next borough. Some of the schools don't seem to give the actual destinations but St Edmunds in Nelson Road, Whitton, does: schoolsfinder.direct.gov.uk/3183315/school-profile/?d=1&Specialism=0&searchstring=St+Edmunds+Catholic+Primary+School&PC=TW2%207BB&type=Primary%2CSecondary&d=1&distanceMeasure=miles&distanceValue=5&pagetype=search-results

In 2010 St Edmunds had 60 children per year leaving (ie about a quarter of the children for whom a new school is supposedly needed). 28 went to St. Mark's which is a mixed Catholic comprehensive a very similar distance from St Edmunds to the Clifden site (about a mile) so doesn't appear they are having trouble getting in and not clear why they would switch preference to another similar school with no track record. 14 girls went to Gumley which is farther away but their parents presumably wanted a single sex school so chose that rather than St Mark's. There are two non-Catholic schools even closer to St Edmunds than St Mark's is, and considerably closer than Clifden - The Heathland School, which is an outstanding Hounslow comprehensive only half a mile from St. Edmunds, and Twickenham Academy. So it seems to me that children leaving that school already have a very good selection of nearby secondary schools.

I continue to be genuinely puzzled about why giving families who have these choices already another option is considered more important than sorting out the overall problem of the black hole that is looming for non-Catholics where the Council is relying on about 8 things out of its control like funding for a Maharishi Free School and Kingston building an enormous school that will create masses of spare capacity at Grey Court to save the day.

Thankfully in their consultation doc, the Diocese has also got a map showing all the LBRUT Catholic primaries as well as the nearby secondaries www.rcdow.org.uk/richmondconsult/Richmondconsult.pdf

At least you always know your opponent is losing the argument when they their only response is to call you a Nazi.

Just to clarify - I was referring to Catholics collectively as I've already said. I said "they" not "it", which any true member of the Catholic church ought to understand. "It" is not some random lifeless institution but a collection of people.

I wonder how many other single interest groups would be in a position that they could go to Richmond Council and say that they could pay for all the necessary building work to the Clifden site? Does that not give you some indication of how well funded collectively Catholics are? From a purely local perspective it has already been made clear much fundraising will need to be done locally in the coming years. This is a wealthy borough and the diocese will not be needing to subsidise it in the long run. If it was, it would almost certainly have other priorities in more needy areas.

The problem with that map is that it doesn't show areas of population density - it makes the Catholic schools look quite evenly spaced. When in fact Richmond Park, Kew Gardens, Bushy Park, etc. make us a low population borough.

I can see how important it is for Catholics to get behind the school at this stage. But in the end the site could be a risk for them too, that's not being discussed openly. Perhaps St Mark's are worried about the competition. There could be a seesaw effect with swings of popularity. Maybe after preference factors (local, selective or single sex school) only 40% of the current 241 would choose the school - so it could be undersubscribed. It may need an allocation of open places (e.g. 30%).. It's just that there is little evidence of alternative sites for this or any other school.

muminlondon, my educated guess is that initially (in 2013 and maybe a couple of years thereon) the school will be undersubscribed by Catholics. I know that I for one won't be choosing it as I have other good options that will win out against an untested school. Talking to others, I'm pretty certain that I'm not alone.

Whether this will matter or not, I'm not sure.

The impact on St Marks will be interesting. It's a little gem in a less than glamourous location. In the long term this could put it at a disadvantage as it'll be viewed as much less worrisome to send an 11yr child on a train/bus to leafy Twickenham than rougher Hounslow.

LittleMrsMuppet - I don't think St Marks or any of the other outstanding Catholic secondary schools have much to worry about. Any places not taken up by Richmond children will be filled by kids from other boroughs. St Marks was previously a popular choice for St James's, but it is now many times oversubscribed and is now practically impossible to get into unless you're a sibling or live near the Hounslow border. Currently St Marks offers 18% of places to applicants from Thames Deanery which includes the Richmond Catholic Primaries. Also the 11yr old child who previously had a 40+ minute bus journey to Hounslow, Brentford, Fulham etc, would be able to walk to school or cycle if they had the option of a local Catholic secondary.

LottieProsser posted some interesting information about St Edmunds school, there's some equally interesting detail about St James's on the same site, but I think there are some gaps because the total number of children given is 75 and St James's is a 3 form entry school so the number in each year is actually around 90. I'm pretty sure the school is always full. It just gives a flavour of the range of schools that parents end up sending their kids to. It's not necessarily down to choice either, quite often it's just what you end up with.

Hi Florist - I totally disagree with you that the Catholic VA school is the only viable short term option for Clifden Road. The Diocese proposal of 10 places in primary and none of the 150 at secondary does not pass the muster. A reasonable proposal could have been for a Catholic academy with 50% of non faith places. I am really dissapointed that was not put forward as an option by the Diocese or the Council, despite having knowledge of the local issues and tensions in the community.

Regarding St Mark's, if it recruits from further afield (other boroughs) then the long journeys just shift elsewhere. Or it fills up with non-Catholics?

I checked the numbers of primary school pupils taking SATS in 2010 - 255 pupils in the Catholic schools (83 at St James's) and 426 pupils in CofE schools. Even 40% take-up by Catholics would be a good showing and realistic, as it's three times the number of CofE school pupils taking up Christ's foundation places, and I believe their commitment. But would still only fill up 2/3 of the proposed school.

If the school decided to make 30% of the places open, interested parents would need to rely on such a quota and plan for it, otherwise they wouldn't apply. It might be hard as a VA school to attract non-Catholics - I get the feeling that interest in Christ's (open places) has declined slightly since Grey Court picked up.

It's in all our interests for this school not to be undersubscribed or underperform, because it would be a waste of resources (and opportunity for a different type of school).

I wonder what consultation response would it take to make the Council drop its promotion of a VA RC school on the Clifden site? Is the consultation exercise a sham?

muminlondon I would be more worried about the impact of a non-catholic school on the Clifden Road site.

In the first few years, as you so rightly point out, it will be a leap of faith whichever side of the fence you sit on. My worry would be that Orleans Park, Teddington and Waldegrave will continue to be the schools of choice and that the new school will just take children away from the Academies.

The council clearly believe this too, hence their expressed concern about being forced to ?mothball? the site to ensure that this does not happen.

seenbutnotheard the council does see the Catholic school as the less disruptive option in terms of the academies, you're right.

But the council should at least put the decision on hold until clear decisions on the north Kingston school, link school policy and free schools have been made. I would like to see evidence that they really do know of a suitable site for a community/free school/academy school that would address the shortages looming in the future. I don't think they can go ahead with the further expansions of primary schools that they would like to implement until they do that, as they've already expanded by 11 classes.

I should say 'less predictable' rather than 'less disruptive'. It doesn't stop the council considering a Maharishi free school near Hampton Academy.

'more predictable' ... I need a cup of tea

I do not really think there is any mileage in this argument that the academies have to be protected. We do not need a 125 year sledgehammer to crack a 2-3 year nut. Twickenham Academy has 50 odd places free in Yr 7, Hampton has hardly any, and Richmond Park has a few more. Clearly no more places are needed on the Richmond side of the river at present because there are less primary schools and more children going private. However all the places on the Twickenham side will fill up in the next year or two because the building work at TA ending will make it more desirable, and the expansions to primary schools that have already occurred will hit soon. Teddington, Orleans Park and Waldegrave are already completely full. So if Clifden is barred to them, children from south of Twickenham and other pockets on the Middx side where they are not near enough to a secondary school to get in will very soon have to travel a very long way to Richmond Park Academy just so that the Catholics can have an exclusive school in the middle of Twickenham and keep everyone else out. We have heard a lot about Catholic children having to travel farther to Catholic schools but, possibly apart from some boys at St James, their parents had the choice to send them to their local secondary school like everyone else. Poorer children from schools like Stanley will have no choice but to undertake a long journey and I doubt they will get driven to Richmond Park Academy in 4 x 4s!

and I doubt they will get driven to Richmond Park Academy in 4 x 4s!

Lottie, the phrase "unnecessarily confrontational" springs to mind.

Wasn't meaning to imply that a disproportionate number of Catholics travel in 4 x 4s - just that quite a lot of 4 x 4s are still on the school run round the area and the further away children have to go to school the more likely it is that their parents will drive them weighed down by their cellos and hockey sticks that don't fit on the bus in rush hour. If their parents can afford a car and don't have to go to work that is! It seems to me that children coming from Barnes, Mortlake etc. will have a more difficult journey to Twickenham by bus/train than they would have had to schools like London Oratory. But I'm sure residents of the Clifden Road area will be defending their parking spaces to the death if they are like most people around here!

Lottie thank you for clarifying ! I just though want to point out something to you. There has been a lot of talk about 125 yr lease and peppercorn rent relating to the Catholic VA option, but I notice from the consultation documents that this is the same deal that has been already given to the academies. I think it is important in this day and age to remember that nothing is ever permanant , policies change, educational thinking changes with every change in government and laws change in time. If any of these 4 schools became unviable I don't think they would be continued under the same terms as it would benefit no one.

Also I don't think that the journey from Twickenham to RPA compares to many of the journeys undertaken by Catholic children every day to out of borough schools which can be far far longer. And no many Catholics in this boough have not had the choice to send their children to their local schools due to the link system etc . At the end of the day we are all parents Lottie who love our kids and Catholics are not 'the enemy'

Bay Jay thank you for your last comment. I think it is important that we focus on the issues.

Bay Jay just a thought , have you considered putting together a bid for one of the other free school sites for a science academy or is it just the Clifden site? I know that in ther prev thread we talked a lot about choice of school and how that areas such as Hampton appeared to have less choice than Twickenham. I guess this is why the borough have opened up these smaller sites around the borough to address this balance across the board. It is just a thought, but surely it would be more appealing to a potential sponsor to sponsor a smaller site and not to be competing with the big successful giants of Orleans Park and Waldegrave when they are in such relative close proximity. Potentially the school could be half full for several years and so would not be a good investment proposition. Also will the government ultimately back and provide 10m +funding to a Free school of this size which will provide ultilamately an over supply of places in one area when we are in recession and they already have a biddder ready to foot the entire refurb bill with a proven need? If a science academy is wanted then could it not be in an area that would benefit more from that additional choice without this battling for one site so both sides could be at peace? Just a thought.

Mir4, quoting from our website's FAQ's:

Do you have a site in mind?
As the school would have a minimum size of 5-forms of entry, we would need a site of significant size. We are aware of the current consultation regarding the usage of the Clifden Road site, and would express an interest in that site should it become available for use as a community school. We are in the process of identifying alternative sites. We are also aware that the council is actively seeking to purchase a site for a future community school and we will monitor that process as it develops.

That's not "battling for one site". That is preparing to take opportunities as they arise.

Secondary schools that have fewer than 5 forms of entry are not able to provide a broad curriculum, so no, we won't be looking at small sites. Hwoever, we are starting to identify some alternative large sites that we could use.

Thank you Bay Jay for clarifying , I am really glad to hear that you are actively seeking alternative sites and opportunities. It would certianly be a wonderful thing if both of our schools could be achieved. Just wondering which potential large sites have you been considering and in what areas of the borough?

Sorry Mir4, that's not information I'm going to be able to give you right now.

LottieProsser - you make a really valid point on impact of a Catholic VA Clifden option on schools like Hampton Jr, Buckingham in Hampton or Heathfield Jr, Trafalgar, Nelson, Stanley in Heathfield/ Whitton. It is preposterous for the Council to imply that kids from these schools ( a high % are on free school meals) will be able to afford and make the awkward journey from Hampton / Heathfield or Whitton to RPA.

That's about 15-18 classes? The nearby academies are reducing to 6 forms each in a couple of years and pupils from neighbouring boroughs will always get in if they are nearer.

LottieProsser - Just referring to your statement: We have heard a lot about Catholic children having to travel farther to Catholic schools but, possibly apart from some boys at St James, their parents had the choice to send them to their local secondary school like everyone else

I'd like to clarify that very few boys who attend St James's are able to access their local school. St James's draws from a very wide catchment area based around different parishes, which extends from St Margarets (local school Orleans Park), to Central Twickenham (Orleans Park, Waldegrave with some crossover to Teddington, and Twickenham Academy), a small area of Teddington (Teddington School) and Hampton/Hampton Hill (Hampton Academy). Three of these schools are not accessible to St James's boys; 1 because it's a girls' school and the other 2 because of the link system. Catholic parents aren't the only ones who have preferred not to send their children to Hampton and Twickenham Academies in the past. With no local Catholic school available many parents will continue to join the lottery for places available outside the borough, because they favour a Catholic school over a local one. The website schoolsfinder.direct.gov.uk shows more detail of destinations for St James's children. You will see that the list is very diverse and the numbers fluctuate every year depending on how the schools operate their admissions policies (they seem to be different each year as well).

I think also there's another aspect to this debate that hasn't really been discussed much, namely the contribution that Catholic children would make to the cultural and educational life of the borough. Much has been talked about the divisive nature of Catholic schools, however you could argue that Catholic children could contribute a lot to the borough and the local community by taking part in borough sports, music, drama, and any other inter-schools activities that may be organised, which they otherwise can't do. Just a thought for the pot.