New Secondary schools for Richmond!

[BayJay]

Richmond Council recently published a White Paper outlining plans for Secondary education in the borough (cabnet.richmond.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=23719). They want new 6th forms in every school, and would need to decrease current Yr7 intakes to accomodate that. To offset those decreases they are talking about creating two new secondary schools. One of those new schools would be a Roman Catholic school.

The Roman Catholic community in the borough are currently disadvantaged by the "link" system (www.st-marys.richmond.sch.uk/Newsletter%20Link%20letter%20for%202011%20links%20(2).pdf). Because the Catholic primaries are not linked to any secondaries in the borough, their children tend to go to a combination of out-of-borough Catholic secondaries (which are mostly rated as Outstanding), grammar schools and private schools, though some of the girls do go to Waldegrave, which is not part of the link system. Note that there is no reason, in principle, why the Catholic Secondaries couldn't be linked to local community schools, but because many of their children have other options, they simply don't meet the "25% rule" required to form a link. (See an example set of transfer figures at www.st-james.richmond.sch.uk/Admin/Uploads/Docs/StJamesSchool_Parents_NewsLetter_270910.pdf).

This raises several questions in my mind:

1. Does the problem necessarily need to be solved by providing a Catholic Secondary, or are there alternative solutions that would benefit the community as a whole (e.g. reforming the link system)?
2. Does the majority of the Catholic community specifically want to be educated separately from the rest of us, or is it the case that, like everyone else, they simply want an outstanding education for their children, and find that the Catholic route is often the best way of achieving that?
3. If Catholics had more options for transferring to outstanding community schools locally (as many already do, to Waldegrave), would they choose those options over travelling to a single-faith school in a neighbouring borough?
4. I accept that there will always be very religious people who want to segregate themselves, but would I be right in asserting that there are also large numbers of Catholics who would be happy to attend community schools, provided that gave them the same level of academic excellence that can be found in many Catholic options?
5. If a new Catholic secondary school is created, it is likely to have an entrance policy that requires a priest's reference (as per the majority of existing Catholic schools). How do people feel about that?
6. If a state-funded Catholic School is created in the borough, would non-Catholic parents also like the option of sending their children there, provided they weren't barred by the admission system?

I'd be interested to hear your opinions!

BayJay: here's what I've found:

Select Committee on Education and Skills Fourth Report, 2003: ? . . In particular the Greenwich and Rotherham Judgements are relevant. The Greenwich Judgement (1989) established that maintained schools may not give priority to children for the sole reason that they live within the LEA's administrative boundaries. The Rotherham Judgement (1997) established that the principle of admission authorities operating catchment areas as part of their oversubscription criteria in allocating school places was lawful ]providing that in so doing authorities are not in breach of the Greenwich judgement . . ?

An extract from another case; ?the Rochdale judgement?: ? . . That this was the intention of Parliament was found by the Court of Appeal in the case of R v Shadow Committee of Greenwich London Borough Council, ex parte The Governors of John Ball Primary School and Others (1989) 88 LGR 589 where at p 595 Lloyd, LJ said:
"Section 6(1) gives clear statutory effect to an enhanced principle of parental choice. Under s.6(2) it is the duty of a local education authority to comply with the preferences expressed by a parent of a child in their area as to the school at which it is to be educated, subject only to the exceptions set out in s.6(3).

I say `enhanced principle of parental choice' because s.6(1) is to some extent foreshadowed by s.76 of the Education Act 1944. Section 6(5) of the Act of 1980 gives effect to a completely new principle, whereby children from other areas are to be treated by a local education authority in exactly the same way as children from their own area. The only difference is that the parent of a child in their own area may express a preference under s.6(1), whereas a child from another area has to make an application under s.6(5). But it comes to the same thing. They are all to be treated as members of the same composite class."

Farquharson, LJ at p 603 said this:
"There is nothing in s.6 which indicates that a child not resident in Greenwich's area should be treated in any way differently from those within the area. Indeed, subs.(5) states that the duty to the parents of a child in the area of the local authority shall also apply in relation to a child who is not. If the duty, therefore, to each parent is the same, how can a policy be lawful if it differentiates or, to use a harsher word, discriminates between the two?" . . ?

Vince Cable's and Jenny Tonge's speeches on this issue (20/05/98)

thanks for enquiring, so approx. Marble Hill park/York House ...basically in that vicinity!
RISC seemed to have calculated their distance as the crow flies!! ?? If you travel by road - which most of us have to (!); then Oratory is approx. 7.4 miles, Wimbledon College 8 miles, Sacred Heart 6 miles, St Pauls 6.1 miles, Richard Challoner 7.9 miles, Ursuline 8 miles, Holy Cross 6.3 miles, ....
so...i can only see 3 schools in the radius that they claim!! Why mislead Richmond Residents??

priviet, I think to be fair they have listed the 'distance by road to borough boundary' on the map too.

I've also seen some other numbers which show distances from each of the Catholic primaries so I'll try and find them and get back to you.

I can see that they have also put on their map distance from borough boundary, but what they have continually claimed and published to Richmond residents that there are 9 schools within 5 miles of the centre of the Borough - this simply is not true !!
i know you are a stickler for having the evidence to back up any claims that one makes, surely, have you or anyone else not questioned them on this? These are quite important 'facts' that they are trying to state, but they are misleading borough residents!

priviet, I can tell you're in attack mode . To my recollection they've always officially described it as "a 5 mile radius". The map has been available on the website since they started using that statistic (and has been linked from here before), so personally I've never been in any doubt as to what they meant.

However, sometimes people pick up on "facts" and misquote them, so if you feel you have been given the wrong impression that may be what's behind it.

Bayjay...i'm not in attack mode!!! far from it! just that i saw you put the link to the map onto this site, and i just wanted to clarify why they are saying that 9 schools are within a 5 mile radius, when they are not!
if you haven't been in any doubt as to what they have meant, wouldn't you want someone, you are supporting, to be factual?

Yes, of course I'd want them to be factual. My point is that I think they have been.

Perhaps you could point to some specific examples where you think the statistic has been mis-represented and I'll take a look.

oh sorry...i just thought i had! just gave approx. mileage to out of borough schools which are not 5 miles from centre of Richmond Borough, which means there are only 3...namely, St Marks, Gumley and Gunnersbury.

Here is some analysis that another RISC supporter has sent to me and given me permission to reproduce. It shows that only two of the Catholic primaries (St James's and Sacred Heart) will be closer to Clifden than existing Secondaries. Of course the children will be travelling from their homes rather than their primaries, but if you assume their homes are evenly distributed around their primaries then the principle is still the same:

St Osmunds, SW13 9HQ
Nearest existing RC secondary - London Oratory/Sacred Heart (3.41/1.81m by road)
Distance to Clifden - 6.85m by road

St Mary Magdalen's, SW14 8HE
Nearest existing RC secondary - London Oratory/Sacred Heart (4.6/2.84 by road)
Distance to Clifden - 6.38m by road

St Elizabeth's, TW10 6HN
Nearest existing RC secondary - Gumley House/Gunnersbury (4.02/4.77m by road)
Distance to Clifden - 4.92m by road

St James's, TW2 5NP
Nearest existing RC secondary - St Marks (3.83m by road)
Distance to Clifden - 2.2m by road

Sacred Heart, TW11 9DD
Nearest existing RC secondary - Holy Cross/Richard Challoner (3.67/5.24m by road)
Distance to Clifden - 2.35m by road

St Edmund's, TW2 7BB
Nearest existing RC secondary - St Marks (1.92m by road)
Distance to Clifden - 2.36m by road

"just gave approx. mileage to out of borough schools which are not 5 miles from centre of Richmond Borough"
They are within "a 5 mile radius" of the centre of the borough. That means a circle, as per the map.

thank you for those figures, bayjay,
going back to the mis-information of the 'supposed' 9 secondary schools within 5 miles, ...made up incorrect facts from RISC to mis-lead people??

sorry, must have cross sent post! but majority of people read that as within 5 miles of the centre of the borough...and the RISC (who are intelligent people) know that!!

"made up-- incorrect facts from RISC to mis-lead people"

Do you really think they'd be that stupid? As I said, they are within "a 5 mile radius" of the centre of the borough. That means a circle, as per the map.

I've always had that clear in my mind. That's not to say other people have.

Gotta go. School run!

BayJay, re your risc supporter 'analysis' of distances can I state my own situation - my child will have to travel 7.5 miles to the nearest Catholic Secondary as opposed to 1.6 miles to Clifden. Oh great, that really beats London Oratory at 9.27 miles! And we so desperately need those 'inclusive' places with only 200 going spare at present in the Borough. (while 950 kids travel out of the Borough to a Catholic Secondary every day*)
*LBRT stats

Do you really think you are pursuing a pragmatic functional campaign in supporting risc or is it entirely ideological? It seems if a Catholic Secondary doesn't open on the site either nothing will that offers Secondary places, or it will take a very long time? What do you think (I do read as much of the threads as I can and hope this doesn't come across as just a repitition question)

Priviet, it is valid to point out the difference between GIS distance (by road) and the 5-mile radius. Transport options are also important although the council doesn't take that into account. Although I think RISC's map is a clear circle, I can see that people have confused distance by road and radius.

I mentioned this 2008 data (tables 9-41) before - although the data is a bit old and details total numbers on the roll to 16, these were, at that point, the most popular RC schools for Richmond residents in descending order of numbers, with my very rough guess in brackets at numbers per year group (just by dividing by 5):

Gumley House - 184 (36)
St Mark's - 163 (33)
The London Oratory 76 (15)
Wimbledon College 63 (13)
Sacred Heart High School - 53 (10)
St Paul's Catholic College - 53 (10)
Gunnersbury Catholic School - 33 (7)
The Cardinal Vaughan - 31 (6)

So clearly Gumley and St Marks take nearly half of pupils, with the rest getting a chance at the others, either due to geography or very strict criteria. So not an equal chance in all the schools mentioned by any means, but a sizeable proportion in the schools nearest to the Clifden site. Do you think that tallies with the numbers given out for secondary destinations at school level?

I do think it would be an expensive luxury if the Clifden site were to be seen just as an additional choice rather than the main one. Then it wouldn't make a satisfactory impact on imports/exports (numbers I'm sure the council likes to scrutinise), or freeing up places in other Richmond schools. Yet by being a VA school it is sure to affect Gumley and St Mark's. The question is, how to get the balance right with the admissions criteria?

"can I state my own situation - my child will have to travel 7.5 miles to the nearest Catholic Secondary as opposed to 1.6 miles to Clifden"
Hello Hamptonhillbilly. I fully concede that for individuals the situation will differ from the average picture. The figures represent a generalisation. For some people their existing Catholic Secondaries will be even closer than the distances stated, and Clifden even further away. The figures have been produced to counter the impression that is often given by Catholic School supporters that all of the children in borough RC primaries will choose Clifden over their out-of-bourough alternatives. Clearly that is not the case, and the council have not so far done any in-depth analysis to show exactly how many of the in-borough catholics will choose a school at Clifden, especially if the Link System is removed and all of a sudden Teddington/Orleans Park/Grey Court become a realistic option too.

" is it entirely ideological?"
I guess it is different for different people. Some people might be supporting RISC from a purely practical standpoint, and others from a purely ideological standpoint, and there will be all combinations in between. As I've said before, personally I'm not against Faith schools, but I do believe in inclusive admissions. Call that "ideological" if you want, but don't use that label as an excuse to dismiss people's arguments (as Lord True did at the start of this debate). There are a lot of people who feel the same way.

hamptonhillbilly - 7.6 miles? Really? Or am I being misled by your username and you don't actually live anywhere near Hampton Hill?

I only ask since Hampton Hill is a mere 2.6 miles as the crow flies (slightly further by road) from St Paul's.

LMM, I am reffering to BajJay's quoted distance analysis -
Gumley House - 184 (36)
St Mark's - 163 (33)
The London Oratory 76 (15)
Wimbledon College 63 (13)
Sacred Heart High School - 53 (10)
St Paul's Catholic College - 53 (10)
Gunnersbury Catholic School - 33 (7)
The Cardinal Vaughan - 31 (6)

from this analysis I extracted my childs travel distances. I wish I could do the school run on a crows back!

LMM, sorry wrong paste:
St Osmunds, SW13 9HQ
Nearest existing RC secondary - London Oratory/Sacred Heart (3.41/1.81m by road)
Distance to Clifden - 6.85m by road

St Mary Magdalen's, SW14 8HE
Nearest existing RC secondary - London Oratory/Sacred Heart (4.6/2.84 by road)
Distance to Clifden - 6.38m by road

St Elizabeth's, TW10 6HN
Nearest existing RC secondary - Gumley House/Gunnersbury (4.02/4.77m by road)
Distance to Clifden - 4.92m by road

St James's, TW2 5NP
Nearest existing RC secondary - St Marks (3.83m by road)
Distance to Clifden - 2.2m by road

Sacred Heart, TW11 9DD
Nearest existing RC secondary - Holy Cross/Richard Challoner (3.67/5.24m by road)
Distance to Clifden - 2.35m by road

St Edmund's, TW2 7BB
Nearest existing RC secondary - St Marks (1.92m by road)
Distance to Clifden - 2.36m by road

St James and Sacred Heart alone have 120 pupils in year 6. Not to mention the increasing difficulty it is to get into schools such as the London Oratory, St Marks or Richard Challoner.

This freedom of choice people seem to think Catholics have is hilarious.

We seem to be spending a lot of time here looking at distances , ways of sending other peoples children (catholic children) out of the borough to struggle to find places elsewhere. Basically are you not saying that for the 1,888 children in catholic primary schools in this borough that they do not have the same right/entitlement to expect continuity of education as other children? That children at 6 primary schools are not valued in the community and should infact go elsewhere at 11 so that Twickenham can have a 4th choice of school while they still have none?
I think we should remember too that this extra choice for Twickenham is likely to cause major problems for a nearby academy and the children of that community. It will also not even be an option for the vast majority of children living outside of Twickenham .

"Not to mention the increasing difficulty it is to get into schools "
h2ohno, this is the root of the problem for everyone. Catholics are having trouble getting into their preferred schools, and non-Catholics are having trouble getting into theirs too (Orleans Park, Teddington etc). We all know there is spare capacity (at the moment, but not necessarily in the near future) at the academies. We all know we need to support them in filling up. The question at the heart of this whole issue is, should the Catholic population be part of that initiative too?

"children at 6 primary schools are not valued in the community "
Mir4, they are absolutely valued. We want to welcome them into our community schools. The Linked School Policy has prevented them from being fully welcomed in the past. Hopefully that will soon change, and many Catholics will be happy with the resulting increase in their options.

We respect the fact that some may still want to travel outside of the borough for the privelege of a VA school, in the same way that other children travel out to Tiffin or various private schools.

Just continuing from my last post ....

If there is a case for a new school in LBRuT from a numbers perspective, then the demand needs to be assessed across the population as a whole. In theory, that is what the impending consultation should do. The option of an inclusive Catholic school should certainly be an option in that consultation. It think it would appeal to a wider cross-section of the community than a VA school.

Just published: a detailed report for next week?s meeting of the Scrutiny Ctee: Secondary School Places (Report for the Education & Children?s Services Overview & Scrutiny Committee 21/11/11) and Report Appendix 1 = spreadsheet forecast to 2020.