New Secondary schools for Richmond!

[BayJay]

Richmond Council recently published a White Paper outlining plans for Secondary education in the borough (cabnet.richmond.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=23719). They want new 6th forms in every school, and would need to decrease current Yr7 intakes to accomodate that. To offset those decreases they are talking about creating two new secondary schools. One of those new schools would be a Roman Catholic school.

The Roman Catholic community in the borough are currently disadvantaged by the "link" system (www.st-marys.richmond.sch.uk/Newsletter%20Link%20letter%20for%202011%20links%20(2).pdf). Because the Catholic primaries are not linked to any secondaries in the borough, their children tend to go to a combination of out-of-borough Catholic secondaries (which are mostly rated as Outstanding), grammar schools and private schools, though some of the girls do go to Waldegrave, which is not part of the link system. Note that there is no reason, in principle, why the Catholic Secondaries couldn't be linked to local community schools, but because many of their children have other options, they simply don't meet the "25% rule" required to form a link. (See an example set of transfer figures at www.st-james.richmond.sch.uk/Admin/Uploads/Docs/StJamesSchool_Parents_NewsLetter_270910.pdf).

This raises several questions in my mind:

1. Does the problem necessarily need to be solved by providing a Catholic Secondary, or are there alternative solutions that would benefit the community as a whole (e.g. reforming the link system)?
2. Does the majority of the Catholic community specifically want to be educated separately from the rest of us, or is it the case that, like everyone else, they simply want an outstanding education for their children, and find that the Catholic route is often the best way of achieving that?
3. If Catholics had more options for transferring to outstanding community schools locally (as many already do, to Waldegrave), would they choose those options over travelling to a single-faith school in a neighbouring borough?
4. I accept that there will always be very religious people who want to segregate themselves, but would I be right in asserting that there are also large numbers of Catholics who would be happy to attend community schools, provided that gave them the same level of academic excellence that can be found in many Catholic options?
5. If a new Catholic secondary school is created, it is likely to have an entrance policy that requires a priest's reference (as per the majority of existing Catholic schools). How do people feel about that?
6. If a state-funded Catholic School is created in the borough, would non-Catholic parents also like the option of sending their children there, provided they weren't barred by the admission system?

I'd be interested to hear your opinions!

I have extracted the meat of the Scrutiny Cttee report here: Secondary school places: report for the Scrutiny Committee November 21.

Just wanted to repsond to the mileage you gave us on p29 Bay jay between schools and the nearest out of borough Catholic secondaries. There has been the assumption on here from several people that catholics in the Richmond /Mortlak/Barnes end of the borough would not chose a Catholic secondary school in their own borough if it was in Clifden.

All of these schools are within a few short mins walk to the nearest BR station which has excellent links with twickenham

Barnes to Twickenham 11mins train + 5 mins walk to Clifden centre
Mortlake to Twickenham 9 mins + 5 min walk to Clifden centre
North sheen to Twickenham 7 mins + 5 mins walk

Compare this to journey from St.Elizabeths to sacred Heart and The london oratory if you were one of the lucky ones to actaully get a place there!

St.Eliz to Sacred Heart walk and bus 31 mins min (ob lot more in the rush hour)
St.Eliz to The London oratory by combination of walk, bus and train and more walking 1 hour (well over if you factor in rush hour and waiting for connecting busses and trains)

Many of Richmonds Catholic children are regularly doing very long journeys to school. Even those children in Whitton I have heard do not all get into St.Marks (so what hope has the rest of the borough got!) . There is no direct bus route for them to St.Marks it is bus and walk or 40 min walk as opposed to the 5-10mins to get to the nearest bus stop to the Clifden centre!

From Sacred Heart Teddington it must be all of 10 mins on the bus to the Clifden centre as opposed to a horrible journey if you are extremley lucky and able to get into the neighbouring boroughs Catholic secondary schools.

At the end of the day BayJay we are talking about giving 1,888 children the same right as other children to be educated in their own borough. they like other children should be able to expect continuity of education like their peers in going to a secondary school with a similar ethos to their primary school. This is not about Catholics not wanting to go to the academies it is about them having the opportunity to access a school which allows them continuity from their catholic primary school, experience.

You mention an Inclusive Catholic secondary school. Is this again a suggestion of a 50/50 faith academy? As I have explained before this would not even accomodate all of the year 6 children leaving st.James let alone the children from other catholic schools around the borough .This would still leave over half of the children with no choice in their own borough while non catholic children in Twickenham would have a 4th choice. How is that 'valuing' Richmonds Catholic children? Could you honestly say that would make you feel like your child was being valued?

Mum in London just briefly thise figures you have provided are now very inaccurate as several schools have changed their admission policies in the last 2 years . For example Cardinal Vaughan and the London Oratory making it virtaully impossible for most children in LBRUT to get into now. It is becoming much harder too to get into other neighbouring schools particaulrly St.Marks

Chris - there's no mention of the impact of putting a sixth form in the oversubscribed Secondaries. I assume that would also lead to a necessary reduction in admission numbers as in the case of the Academies. Or is this now going to have to be put on hold?

Mir4, your points about train travel are valid, and I will feed them back to RISC.

"At the end of the day BayJay we are talking about giving 1,888 children the same right as other children to be educated in their own borough"
That is the fundamental point on which we disagree. I think they already have that right, or at least they will have if the Linked School Policy is abolished. I would agree that if that policy isn't abolished then there is a much stronger case for a VA school. However, I am hopeful that it will be in the interests of fairness (despite the fact it will negatively impact my own children). By the way, the consultation on that starts today, so people who feel strongly about the Linked School Policy should take a look at that.

"going to a secondary school with a similar ethos to their primary school"
I don't think there are many children who go to a secondary school with a similar ethos to their primary school. Most of the children at Twickenham's CofE primaries currently go to Orleans Park or Waldegrave, and many will be going to Twickenham Academy in the future. Its not even true to say that children from Twickenham's Community Primaries will have continuity if they go to Twickenham Academy, because the Kunskapsskolan ethos is so different to anything they're used to.

Sorry Mir4, I was interrupted halfway throught that last post, so here is the last bit ...

"You mention an Inclusive Catholic secondary school. Is this again a suggestion of a 50/50 faith academy? As I have explained before this would not even accomodate all of the year 6 children leaving st.James let alone the children from other catholic schools around the borough"
Yes, I do mean a 50/50 academy, and you're right that it wouldn't accomodate all of the Catholics in the borough. However, it would accomodate at least 75 of them (per year group), and probably more because they would be more likely to express a preference for it than non-Catholics, and therefore may also fill some of the open places. I think its fundamentally right that some of the places should be available to the wider community.

It wouldn't need to accomodate all of the 90 children leaving St James because many of them will still choose Waldegrave (13 in 2010) and private schools (19 in 2010) and Grammar schools (3 in 2010), as well as VA schools outside of the borough. If the Linked School policy goes they will also have the choice of Teddington and Orleans Park if they live close enough (and many do).

LittleMrsMuppet, creating 6th forms in the community secondaries is still a priority (see section 4.3 in this report). I have heard through the grapevine that there is now talk of doing that without reducing the intake, but I haven't seen anything official yet.

LittleMrsMuppet: The Scrutiny report just says: ? . . 4.15 Sixth forms: The Council outlined in the Education ?White Paper? its ambition for sixth forms to be opened in all eight secondary schools and academies and, subject to the approval of statutory proposals, it is likely that this will be achieved by September 2013 for seven of the eight, with Richmond Park Academy following suit a year later. It is possible that the establishment of successful sixth forms will prove popular not just in relation to recruitment to Year 12 but to Year 7 also, i.e. that the schools may attract some children whose parents would otherwise have opted for private schools; however, it is difficult to hypothesize, and then factor into the forecasts, the extent to which that may happen.? So there will be no reduction in admission numbers.

Do they actually have any room for the sixth forms if they don't reduce admission numbers though? Or do they anticipate building sixth forms off site?

"do they anticipate building sixth forms off site?"
LittleMrsMuppet, according to this report, p.114, section 4.4.8 they are talking of spending £25million on 6th forms, implying that there will be some building included.

BayJay?s link above is to the papers for the Finance & Performance Overview & Scrutiny Committee to be held on Monday, 14 November 2011; it says: ? . . 4.4.8 Feasibility work has now been carried out on providing Sixth Forms in every secondary school in the Borough. The outcomes will be the subject of a separate report to Cabinet . . ? so we must wait for that report to learn more.

The report posted above is both interersting and shocking. Why so few first preference applicants to the three Richmond non faith school academies? If the people of Richmond are not applying in numbers to existing non faith inclusive schools what surely is the case for another?
Oh and Bayjay I know you want a Catholic academy with admissions open to non Catholics and with no reserved position for senior staff being Catholics in accordance with the law - hey won't that be just like the existing schools struggling to fill their places doing nothing for local parents Catholic or otherwise

"If the people of Richmond are not applying in numbers to existing non faith inclusive schools what surely is the case for another?"
florist, that's disingenuous. The 3 academies have a history of underperformance and, although a lot is being done to turn them around, it will take time for people to gain confidence in them. The other community schools are highly oversubscribed. If I was being mischevious I could turn your argument on its head and ask how there could be a case for a Catholic VA school when St Pauls in Sunbury is also so undersubscribed. But I won't.

It is a serious question: you say people of Richmond are crying out for a non faith inclusive school - well the data published by the Council on 2012-13 admissions to the three schools do not suggest that. If as you say the schools are improving then the more people like you send your children to them and get involved in the school the better they will be.
What I can't understand is the passion RISC have against a Catholic school on the Clifden site if they are unwilling perhaps for good reason to eschew an inclusive non faith school (3 of them) on their doorstep.

"the more people like you send your children to them and get involved in the school the better they will be"
And you too florist. The whole community needs to get behind them, including Catholics. RPA in particular is aiming to attract local Catholics, as well as non-Catholics, to help it meet its admissions target.

If I were in Richmond I would want my child to go to a Catholic school - so I would welcome the opportunity afforded by such a school in the borough.
RISC and yourself want another non faith, "inclusive" school but do not seem prepared to send your children to those that already exist. It is clear to me that RISC is more interested in promoting a national Accord, anti-faith school agenda, than the practical messy politics of what is practicable in this situation whether that be a Faith school or turning around the existing non faith academies.

"If the people of Richmond are not applying in numbers to existing non faith inclusive schools what surely is the case for another?"
But they are applying to the non-faith schools, and in ever increasing numbers to Orleans, Teddington, Waldegrave and Grey Court.

The problem, as I see it, is that the future of non-Catholic Secondary provision within the Borough has now been entirely tied to the success or otherwise of the Academies. The primary school population has expanded beyond recognition. If the Academies fail, parents will understandably not choose them. But where will they send their children instead? They'll feel forced in their huge numbers to either move out of the Borough or find the fees for private. Is it really acceptable for us as a community to wash our hands of them, simply telling them off for not supporting the Academies as they go?

florist, we're not going to agree on this.

As I've said before, I'm not against faith schools, I just think they should have inclusive admissions. Church of England schools are moving in the right direction on that, because they recognise their responsibilities to the wider community.

Missmuppet the schools you mentioned are apparently applying to become academies or at least some of them according to the report published. So your view seems to be that the people of Richmond only want non faith inclusive schools that they choose to send their kids too; that is the issue is not one of quantity of places but quality. From a taxpayer point of view I'd wait until existing non faith schools were full before I created another one. Why do you so fear a Catholic school on the site - the main reason apart from the ideological objection seems to be that the Catholic population would have more choice then; but if non Catholics avoid the inclusive secular schools that they say they want why should our local council take this position seriously.

Bayjay your position is incredible - I know you say you don't mind a faith school providing it doesn't prioritise Catholics in oversubscription criteria as happens everywhere else and providing senior leadership positions are not reserved to Catholics. What you want is a school with "Catholic" on the sign outside and secular inside; but we already have 3 such schools in the borough with "academy" on the sign and frankly derisory first prefrences.

Mir4, I accept the figures are old and admission policies change. But I couldn't find anything more recent.

My views aren't rigid, I genuinely need to see a benefit for the wider community and be persuaded. It's clear that unless it is a Catholic VA school that is 100% preferred by AND can skew its intake towards Richmond pupils, it would not even achieve the points stated in its defence - increasing capacity by freeing up places elsewhere, stopping the outflow of pupils to other boroughs - let alone be inclusive. What if some parents prefer (a) established oustanding schools (with no pool or theatre, like the Oratory) rather than an untested or merely 'good' one, or (b) a single sex one, or (c) one nearer by bus or bike, or (c) one with strict admissions criteria? Or what if you end up with more out-of-borough pupils than Richmond ones? It's a huge risk to commit so many funds without knowing for sure.

That's why data is important and any more evidence you have is valid.

Bayjay and missmuppet - tell me why the inclusive non faith schools in Richmond are so undersubscribed?

florist, do you mind me asking if you're local?

muminlondon surely planning school places is more of an art than a science. All boroughs struggle to forecast future demand still less to understand the alternative prferences of propsective parents under different scenarios. If you are looking for facts to persuade you you might well be waiting for some time.

bayjay - no I am not in Richmond borough but am London so I don't know the schools in question

florist - if you were local you would know why the particular schools in question are undersubscribed. Not all schools are undersubscribed but there are not enough adequate (note - adequate rather than good or outstanding) schools at present, which is why the proposal to open a very restrictive faith school at this particular point is contentious.

The lack of published research or investigation of the alternatives prior to giving the Catholic church a building is also questionable in my opinion (I know the council have denied offering the site to the Catholic Church but none of us really believe that do we!). I have not seen any anything published recently by the council laying out how many places are likely to be necessary in the medium term, what impact the proposal to incorporate sixth forms into existing schools will have on the intake sizes of schools, where in the borough the demand is likely to come from.

I beleive that the council should be applying their resources and energy to these questions and the provision of faith schools should be a part of those bigger questions.

I have said it before and I will say it again. I understand Catholics wanting a Catholic secondary school, I do, I understand it. But I don't understand why the council is prioritising what the catholic community want over what the rest of the borough's children need.

Surely the aim of government should be to provide competent schooling for all before specific faith requirements are addressed.