New Secondary schools for Richmond!

[BayJay]

Richmond Council recently published a White Paper outlining plans for Secondary education in the borough (cabnet.richmond.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=23719). They want new 6th forms in every school, and would need to decrease current Yr7 intakes to accomodate that. To offset those decreases they are talking about creating two new secondary schools. One of those new schools would be a Roman Catholic school.

The Roman Catholic community in the borough are currently disadvantaged by the "link" system (www.st-marys.richmond.sch.uk/Newsletter%20Link%20letter%20for%202011%20links%20(2).pdf). Because the Catholic primaries are not linked to any secondaries in the borough, their children tend to go to a combination of out-of-borough Catholic secondaries (which are mostly rated as Outstanding), grammar schools and private schools, though some of the girls do go to Waldegrave, which is not part of the link system. Note that there is no reason, in principle, why the Catholic Secondaries couldn't be linked to local community schools, but because many of their children have other options, they simply don't meet the "25% rule" required to form a link. (See an example set of transfer figures at www.st-james.richmond.sch.uk/Admin/Uploads/Docs/StJamesSchool_Parents_NewsLetter_270910.pdf).

This raises several questions in my mind:

1. Does the problem necessarily need to be solved by providing a Catholic Secondary, or are there alternative solutions that would benefit the community as a whole (e.g. reforming the link system)?
2. Does the majority of the Catholic community specifically want to be educated separately from the rest of us, or is it the case that, like everyone else, they simply want an outstanding education for their children, and find that the Catholic route is often the best way of achieving that?
3. If Catholics had more options for transferring to outstanding community schools locally (as many already do, to Waldegrave), would they choose those options over travelling to a single-faith school in a neighbouring borough?
4. I accept that there will always be very religious people who want to segregate themselves, but would I be right in asserting that there are also large numbers of Catholics who would be happy to attend community schools, provided that gave them the same level of academic excellence that can be found in many Catholic options?
5. If a new Catholic secondary school is created, it is likely to have an entrance policy that requires a priest's reference (as per the majority of existing Catholic schools). How do people feel about that?
6. If a state-funded Catholic School is created in the borough, would non-Catholic parents also like the option of sending their children there, provided they weren't barred by the admission system?

I'd be interested to hear your opinions!

I'm just posting a link to this useful glossary of admissions terms.

Also, I'm trying to find a primary-source link to the Greenwich Judgement 1989 so that I can read up on it. So far a Google search has only brought up lots of examples of groups protesting against it, but I'm trawlng my way through to find the reference I need. If anyone finds it before me, please post it here. Thanks!

It's mentioned/summarised in the link school policy document quite clearly - dates back to 1989.

Thanks muminlondon. Yes,I've got as far as identifying it as :
R v London Borough of Greenwich, ex parte John Ball Primary School, 1989
I just haven't been able to find the actual judgement anywhere yet. I'd like to read it.

Here's something of interest. Twickenham Academy is proposing to open a 6th Form from September 2012!. You can take part in the consultation via their website.

Also, the council have now published the documentation for the Linked School Policy Consultation, which starts this Tuesday (Nov 15th).

Hampton Acdemy is also proposing to open a 6th form in 2012. You can view the information about that here.

How many councillors send or will their kids to these academies ? Lord True kids go to Catholic school and Eton. Like other Catholic families, his family does not share our challenge. We can only go 2 under performing academies. Like Catholics we cant go 2 Gumley and St Marks. Please come and meet families in Whitton, Twickenham and Hampton who will suffer because of a Catholic VA school at Clifden Road

Sound like the academies on the Twickenham side will fill up much more quickly than RPA. In the Richmond and Twickenham Times Jeremy Rodell says that half the spare places are at that school. No point expanding an unpopular school too quickly either. Faith schools are usually smaller which must make it easier to tackle discipline problems.

Hello akhan. If you haven't done so already, I suggest you contact your local councillors and let them know your views. If they're sympathetic (and they ought to be) then they may agree to meet with you to discuss the situation further.

You could also contact RISC directly to let them know your perspective, as they are gathering evidence of the effects of this proposed school on different communities.

Where did you get your information about where Lord True sends his children to school? Provide a link if you can, or if its hearsay then let us know that too. (Note that I try to discourage people from criticising individuals too personally in this forum, whichever side they're on).

Akhan I think you need to go back a bit and read the prev posts as you seem to have picked up some information incorrectly. Families in Whitton et al will not lose out if it is a Catholic school on the clifden site at all but will loose out hugely (particularly twickenham academy) if it is a Community school as for the next 5/6 years atleast until numbers build families will chose a new Twick school over them as they are not chosing them now. At the end of that period I would argue that it is extremly likely then that we will be back to square one with a school that is once again failing that nobody want s to send their children to as they will have endured a long period with funding limitations and a shortfall of children. Families outside of Twickenham town centre also are very unlikely to gain if this is either a 50/50 Faith academy or community school as it would be a small school so places would be allocated to those nearest so if you live close to RPA or Hampton academy you will still only have the 1 choice.

Catholics do not have unlimited access to the schools you have mentioned.. Families struggle to get their children into St. Marks particularly as Richmond only has a small allocation of places and Gumley is a girls school again with limited places and not accessable to everyone. Richmonds Catholic children have a small percentage of places in those schools (and other Catholic schools,) the largest share goes to the Hounslow children naturally but also is shared with 2/3 other boroughs in addition so it is not at all easy to gain places, once again it boils down to distance and the number of those in borough and nearer applying. It is also becoming much harder due to population increases in other boroughs too and the inevitable changes in admission poliicies.

5 out 0f 6 Richmond Catholic schools also do not have links to any of the boroughs secondary schools so effectively in year 7 they have no where to go except outside of the borough if they want continuity of education.

There have been arguments on here that Twickenham is the best place for a new community school despite it already having 3 other secondary schools because it is central in the borough so will not have to offer so many out of borough places . However I notice that Orleans park has 3 schools on its link school list that are out of borough :- Ivybridge Primary, The Blue primary and worple Primary . All of the local C of E schools are linked with orleans too (presumably C of E children in addition to this have access to Christs C of E secondary?) yet there are no links at all to its local Catholic primary school St.James.
The Clifden site is a natural location for a Catholic school without causing major disruption to other local secondary schools and would rectify the problem of unequal access for the boroughs large Catholic community. It would also free up spaces in Orleans, Teddington Park and Waldegrave for other local children.

Mir4, the Blue School has already lost its link. It is an odd distribution - there are two CofE primaries in St Margarets/Twickenham with a link, while in Richmond the two nearest primaries to the bridge are without any link (Marshgate, Vineyard), and the same for Kew Riverside.

But if the link policy is abolished as recommended by the admissions forum, there will be more Richmond borough pupils getting into Orleans than at present.

Perhaps if there is a case for a new RC school, it would be better situated in Sheen, as it would be closer to many of the existing RC primaries. Whereas Gumley is only a mile from the proposed site and nearer to those Catholics in Kew, Sheen, Barnes, etc.

To free up places at Waldegrave, pupils are likely to be living in the areas with the blue dots on this map. Perhaps a few at St James's and St Elizabeths (still quite near Gumley).

Mir4 are you suggesting that Catholics from all over borough will shun their nearby catholic secondaries and endure hardships to travel to clifden ?

Twickenham academy likely to fill up or oversubscribed by 2013 especially if yr 7 spaces are reduced to accommodate 6 th form

Which nearby Catholic secondaries? Are you talking outside the borough?

I have just discovered there is an Outstanding Catholic secondary in Wandsworth, not too far from my end of the borough. I am suddenly really curious why nobody from sons primary have even mentioned it as an option, along with all the other out of borough Catholic secondaries.

Heelo QuintessentialShadow. Here's a map of all the Catholic Secondary schools within 5 miles of the centre of Richmond Borough.

Thanks BayJay. It helps.

santac, it appears to be the same.

QuintessentialShadow - if it's the combined Salesian/John Paul II - then I doubt it's "outstanding" yet as it has only just opened. John Paul II was in special measures a few years back and Salesian was "Satisfactory but improving" in its last Ofsted inspection. Both schools were undersubscribed, hence merging them and the relaunch. The new school is St John Bosco, and as far as I'm aware it has yet to make its mark and be seen favourably amongst Richmond parents.

Muminlondon I think the Blue school has 1 year left as is on 2nd year warning.

The case for a VA catholic secondary school in Twickenham would be that it is closest to the largest Catholic primary schools and has great transport links close to the other Catholic primary schools in the borough. So more suitable than Sheen. In the past I have worked in Barnes and lived in twickenham and can vouch for the excellent transport links. Parents will chose a Catholic VA school in Twickenham becuase for many Catholic children across the borough it is very difficult (and becoming more so every year) to secure a place in an out of borough Catholic secondary school. Parents would also like to give their children continuity of education within their own borough. For those with younger siblings in Richmonds Catholic primary schools there are also the practical considerations of term dates, holidays etc which tend to vary most between boroughs.

It is a big 'if' the school link policy is abolished as many parents will not be happy to lose their links. If it is abolished may well help local parents wanting to get into Orleans but how will it help with schools close to the borders such as Greycourt? What is the RISC position on school links ?

JEEV:- Catholics from all over the borough do not have local catholic secondaries to 'shun' as all of these schools are in other boroughs who naturally give priority for children in their own borough, but also share a small precentage of remaining places between a number of other boroughs which include Richmond. They by no means at all get easy access and priority at any of these schools. Some of the nearest schools will also be single sex. I am wondering if you are suggesting that it is not important to Catholics to have continuity of schooling in their own borough ? I would hope that you are not suggesting that the children from 6 primary schools are not welcome in this borough and should go elsewhere?

Twickenham Academy despite the changes to numbers and 6th form in my view is still vulnerable as it is not traditionally the first destination of choice for Twickenham parents sadly so another community school /50/50 academy in Twickenham town centre would seriously hamper its pupil numbers and so hamper its continued progress.

Mir4, I realise the RC schools in Twickenham have more pupils in them than the Barnes ones so Sheen is just as problematic. Richmond is one of the smallest boroughs in London so the presence of a catholic school has got to be taken in the context of what's available nearby. Hounslow is the main supplier of RC places at the moment - at least half of the 150 or so Y7 out-of-borough catholic places are there. So any consultation or review by the Education department is going to have to look at the impact on those schools. An inclusive school would make more places available for Catholics than was previously the case but without such a dramatic immediate impact. It would of course be important that the school would be well supported by Catholics from all over the borough as well as those in the local community.

As far as the link school policy is concerned, it favours Twickenham but has practically broken down for the Richmond side of the river - it just doesn't make any difference. Grey Court now has links with more pupils from Kingston schools than with Richmond ones and it would actually be really hard to get in and establish a link (e.g. for pupils at Marshgate) when the admission numbers drop back to 200 because it made 260 offers last year but only about 60 were on distance. Yet there are three Richmond/Kew schools without a link representing 150 pupils (more counting the bulge classes) which translates to a high proportion of pupils from those schools going private, compared to the borough average, due to lack of choice. Also, Grey Court made an early application to become an acadamy so will soon determine its own admissions - as will Orleans, Waldegrave and Teddington if/when they convert. It would be unfair to have admissions policies based on links formed 5 years ago.

It would seem fairer to allow new links to be formed more easily, instead of abolishing the whole policy, but the admissions forum decided against that in view of how short-term such a solution might be with the academies coming.

Bayjay, can i please ask where the RISC consider the centre of Richmond Borough to be? Is it approx. Marble Hill Park?

Hi priviet. From memory I think it is meant to be the council headquarters York House (but it looks slightly out on the map). I'll let you know if I find a reference that says different.

priviet, I just contacted RISC and asked them about the map. They said: "It's the approximate geographical centre of the borough (half way along the length and the width). But, to avoid doubt, we have been careful to be conservative in counting schools in the 5 miles radius. London Oratory, which is just on the edge, is excluded. As is St John Bosco, which is due to move. There are still 9 schools within the radius".