New Secondary schools for Richmond!

[BayJay]

Richmond Council recently published a White Paper outlining plans for Secondary education in the borough (cabnet.richmond.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=23719). They want new 6th forms in every school, and would need to decrease current Yr7 intakes to accomodate that. To offset those decreases they are talking about creating two new secondary schools. One of those new schools would be a Roman Catholic school.

The Roman Catholic community in the borough are currently disadvantaged by the "link" system (www.st-marys.richmond.sch.uk/Newsletter%20Link%20letter%20for%202011%20links%20(2).pdf). Because the Catholic primaries are not linked to any secondaries in the borough, their children tend to go to a combination of out-of-borough Catholic secondaries (which are mostly rated as Outstanding), grammar schools and private schools, though some of the girls do go to Waldegrave, which is not part of the link system. Note that there is no reason, in principle, why the Catholic Secondaries couldn't be linked to local community schools, but because many of their children have other options, they simply don't meet the "25% rule" required to form a link. (See an example set of transfer figures at www.st-james.richmond.sch.uk/Admin/Uploads/Docs/StJamesSchool_Parents_NewsLetter_270910.pdf).

This raises several questions in my mind:

1. Does the problem necessarily need to be solved by providing a Catholic Secondary, or are there alternative solutions that would benefit the community as a whole (e.g. reforming the link system)?
2. Does the majority of the Catholic community specifically want to be educated separately from the rest of us, or is it the case that, like everyone else, they simply want an outstanding education for their children, and find that the Catholic route is often the best way of achieving that?
3. If Catholics had more options for transferring to outstanding community schools locally (as many already do, to Waldegrave), would they choose those options over travelling to a single-faith school in a neighbouring borough?
4. I accept that there will always be very religious people who want to segregate themselves, but would I be right in asserting that there are also large numbers of Catholics who would be happy to attend community schools, provided that gave them the same level of academic excellence that can be found in many Catholic options?
5. If a new Catholic secondary school is created, it is likely to have an entrance policy that requires a priest's reference (as per the majority of existing Catholic schools). How do people feel about that?
6. If a state-funded Catholic School is created in the borough, would non-Catholic parents also like the option of sending their children there, provided they weren't barred by the admission system?

I'd be interested to hear your opinions!

muminlondon - thanks very much for these links and stats - very insightful. We are already seeing the impact in Richmond - 30 primary children in Orleans are being forced to miss four months of school due to the failure to provide enough places in time in Sep. So councils delivery track record is not impressive and how credible are their schools places predictions ? We have not seen any detailed predictions and this is really unsettling everyone. They keep on changing their story about secondary school places frequently (since the white paper was published last Dec) . We need detailed estimates and not just high and mighty strategic statements.

I should have said there were 2,200 places in reception for primary school pupils for 2011-2012 according to the primary admissions brochure. That won't include bulge classes added later. The annual birth rate actually increased from 2,384 in 2000 to 2,992 in 2010 according to this. Some may have moved on but others move in. So there would be a big shortfall in secondary places if all the private school pupils suddenly liked what they saw in Richmond schools.

Just noticed that £3.9 million for school places just given to Richmond. How will that be spent? Not enough to buy a school. Kingston are getting £5.3 millon but the £12 million for Sutton schools is 'not enough'.

That just puts into context the money was spent on the Clifden site (a suggestion was £10 million in the council meeting).

Stephen Knight said in the Council meeting that £ 10m was spent for a site for secondary school in Wandsworth. I would imagine Twickenham is more expensive

One more point about school places generally - hamptonhillbilly is no doubt right that the 36 Catholic pupils starting in RuT community schools last year might have chosen a new VA school had one been available. But I think the point about others choosing to go to Orleans instead, should the link policy be abolished, should also be considered.

Then take into account non-Catholic pupils without a link, the Twickenham/Richmond pupils at Vineyard, Marshgate and Kew Riverside (as well as Sheen Mount) - some who would otherwise have gone private - with a new chance to transfer into Orleans if they live near enough, and it is likely that those in former link schools a little further out (Archdeacon Cambridge, Chase Bridge) living further away may find themselves without a place even at an academy. Not that they have any more rights over the places than those from schools which didn't have links before, or those who would otherwise have gone private.

I wonder what impact a new VA school would have on Gumley and St Marks - would there be less demand there? Would they suffer as a result?

Another thing to bear in mind for the future is that more and of the catholic primaries are becoming two form entries. My sons school have two reception classes this year, next year another rc primary in our neighbourhood will add a second reception class.

What if Clifden road is an outstanding community school that offers Catholic chaplaincy service . In the 1st 3-5 yrs, the school could reserve a high proportion of places for Catholics from all over Richmond. So they circumvent the distance criteria. Would this attract Catholics who genuinely have difficulties going out of borough and would not mind going to local community school. This could potentially solve issue of in-borough places for lot of Catholics and minimise impact on community places. The council will need to consult on this option and estimate what the numbers would look like - but is this a credible option?
Keen to get everyones view on this.

Quintessential, you're right, but that's an indication of the general bulge problem - single form Catholic schools are too small to take bulge classes very often. Yet Marshgate, built for 60 reception places and with just the one assembly hall/dining room and no playing fields, is being asked to take 90 pupils every three years. I know of schools that have had to start the year with 100 pupils despite usually having 60 reception places. Certainly building another single-form primary school for Catholics would be inflexible in that regard.

Very interesting data on transfers from specific boroughs to specific schools here even though it dates from 2008. Look at tables 9 to 41 - nearly 20% of pupils at Gumley are from Richmond borough. So I think it will have an impact there.

Jeev, that would certainly appeal to a lot of non-Catholics. It's not the proposal on the table at the moment so I suppose we need to wait and see what Gove's response is.

Just posting a link to this week's Richmond and Twickenham Times. Their correction to last week's consultation article is on page 10, and there are more letters on pages 27 and 28.

A Catholic chaplaincy service does not offer the continuity of schooling that children in 6 primary schools are missing. It does not provide the ethos of the school it is not central to the learning and the way this is delivered. It is not the heart of the school. A chapliancy service is generally associated with universities not school children.

A VA catholic school will give an opportunity for children of tax paying parents from right across the borough to have continuity of education.
I do not understand how we can discuss the 'RISC' campaign in light of it being of benefit to all the children in the borough if it is not a VA school when the majority of our communities across the borough will have no access at all to it as another community or 50/50 Faith academy and where to one community in particular (whitton) it would be extremely detrimental to their local school.

How is justifiable to suggest that 220 children are forced to continue to go out of the borough (that their parents pay taxes in to) so that the other children in 1 town can have even more choice?

The crises in other boroughs Muminlondon mentioned too are going to only make it far harder for Catholic children to get places in neighbouring boroughs schools. You only need to look at the level of new homes built in some of our neighbouring boroughs particularly Hounslow to know that this is going to impact on the number of places that will be offered to Richmonds catholic children at their schools in future years. It is already beginning to impact now!

As for your figures they do not reflect the Catholic children currently in the boroughs secondary schools who have never even made it into a Catholic primary school due to lack of places so had to follow link route through other community schools. Many of these children too are out there but do not appear in the statistics and am sure would chose a Catholic VA secondary if the opportunity was there for them too.

Hi Mir4. I think you're making the basic assumption that the vast majority of Catholics will always opt for a Catholic school over other equally good quality schools. I would challenge that, and as I've said before, I think the council ought to have analysed the true nature of the demand from the Catholic population before this whole row erupted.

Mir4 - You raise some very valid points. I agree wholeheartedly that a community school will simply benefit Twickenham residents near to the site to the immediate detriment of Twickenham Academy. In my view, it is not as great a use of public funds as a Catholic school that will take pupils from across the borough. Twickenham does not have a current shortage of places for secondary. Catholics do not have an in borough continuity of education. We have pupils from 6 VA Catholic primaries which will benefit from this new site. If there are not enough Catholics then local residents would get in.

Some of us do actually want a Catholic school for the religious element, NOT as a get out clause to not support the less succesful academies.

IF/WHEN in the future their will be a shortage (ie RPA and Twickenham academy are full) do you honestly believe the council will leave 200 odd pupils without a school?

"IF/WHEN in the future their will be a shortage..."
h2ohno, unfortunately the council do not yet have any forecasts. Only the Lib Dem opposition spokesman has published a forecast. His forecast shows that the council needs to start planning for extra community provision now. The council have not contradicted those figures, or published alternative figures.

I think it would be extremely useful to understand in detail the differences in curriculum at a Catholic School compared to a CoE school or a Community school. Mir 4 maybe you could be kind enough to expand on how the education is delivered differently, impact on subjects like languages, maths, science, extra curricular activities like music, sports etc and highlight the areas of incompatibility with other types of school. Much appreciated.

BayJay - Thanks for highlighting this discussion board in todays RTT. I have been following this with great interest as in Whitton, non Christians will suffer if a Catholic school opens in Twickenham in addition to nearby St Marks or Gumley .

I think that Mir4 is saying that, what many parents want for their children is to be in a school where God is at the centre of all that happens, just like He is within our marriages and families.

I can understand that for many this is a hard concept to understand, but the ethos of a school is important.

As I have said before "we live just around the corner from an 'outstanding' non-denominational primary and chose to go the primary attached to our Catholic Church which is 'good' rather than outstanding and a little further away.

I know that many believe that the pull of a Catholic school is results and OFSTED driven, but we actually wanted a Catholic school to encourage our children in their faith - to go to the school attached to our Church, if we just wanted an outstanding school for academic reasons, rather then for faith reasons, we really would have gone around the corner."

I am interested to note that:
If the Archdiocese was unsuccessful in opening a new VA school, the Director would not, at this time, recommend opening a new community school as this would harm improvements being made in other borough secondary schools . . '
If there was a choice of no school on this site, or a Catholic VA school what would people think?

using directors logic no school should be opened now. if a catholic school is open at clifden, nearby catholics seeking community places will not go to twickenham academy. those seeking catholic education have a choice of St katherine.

akhan - can you explain to me how Whitton non-Christian children will suffer as a result of the Clifden site becoming a Catholic school?
Most of Whitton's residents would be out of catchment for this school (unless of course it ends up not being 'outstanding' and local families continue to apply for Orleans instead)

My point above is that the Director of Children's Services is saying that a community school would, at this time, harm the improvements being made by schools such as Twickenham Academy. This is more likely to disadvantage Whitton families is it not?

St Catherine's is a private school - I definately do not have a choice to send my daughter there and my son would have no chance of getting in!

"If there was a choice of no school on this site, or a Catholic VA school what would people think"
I would wonder why the council bought the site in the first place. After all they went to great pains when they made the Key Decision to buy the site to say that the type of school would be decided at a later date. This comes back to the whole question of whether they have made the decision yet or not. They say they haven't, so there have to be other options for the site.

akhan - hello and welcome. When you say "non Christians will suffer if a Catholic school opens in Twickenham in addition to nearby St Marks or Gumley" would I be right in thinking that you mean your local community schools, such as Twickenham Academy, are diminished if all of the Catholics go to Clifden/St Marks/Gumley? Would it be fair to say that you think your children would benefit from learning alongside their Catholic neighbours, and that your Catholic neighbours would benefit from learning alongside your children?

BayJay, the council pledge to open a Catholic Secondary was well before they bought the site so it's hard to see how the subsequent intended use is a surprise. I have asked before but why do you think the risc campaign didn't start when pledge was initially made?
It may be possibly to describe Liberal councillors current view as happy to see a Catholic Secondary open, unless it actually does!

Hello hamptonhillbilly:

"the council pledge to open a Catholic Secondary was well before they bought the site so it's hard to see how the subsequent intended use is a surprise"
I didn't say it was a surprise. I was saying that the purchase of the site was agreed on the basis that no decision had yet been taken as to the type of school to be provided. Quoting from section 3.13 of the documentation that informed that decision: "There was cross-party support in favour of provision for a state Catholic school. It must be stressed however that this Council level support does not represent a decision to provide this type of school at the Clifden site. That would be a separate decision from that which is before the Cabinet in this report."

If the council subsequently says that there is only one viable option for the site, they may well be opening themselves up to legal challenge. They can, of course, express a preference for a particular type of school.

In ?Priority: Providing sufficient numbers of high-quality secondary school places?:

(The Director of Education (Nick Whitfield) reported to the Oct 17 Scrutiny meeting): ? . . The academic profile of secondary schools in the borough continues to improve year on year, and parental confidence in the quality of secondary school provision continues to grow; however, there is still considerable spare capacity in secondary schools. There are approximately 200 spare places in the Year 7 cohort that started in the three academies in September 2011.

Unlike at primary level, where most state-funded schools in the borough are consistently successful and therefore popular, it may take time for the positive changes at the three academies to translate into oversubscription in secondary schools. For that reason, it is unlikely that the increased demand in the primary sector will lead to additional secondary school places being required until beyond 2016 at the earliest, if at all.

It is also the case that the first groups of families whose children would miss out if the academies became oversubscribed would be those living well outside the borough. There would therefore be some degree of cushioning for in-borough residents. Although the establishment of a Catholic secondary school in 2013 has been in the context of increasing choice and diversity, it would also meet basic need by releasing places at the eight secondary schools.

This would be most notable at Christ?s School, because it has traditionally admitted a number of Catholic children as part of its ?Foundation? category. Within this context, the increases in numbers at the three academies could safely be reversed down to 180 places each in order to accommodate sixth form provision. It has also been agreed that, from 2012 entry onwards, the temporary increase in Grey Court?s admission number should be reversed down to 200.

Christ?s has proposed increasing its intake by an additional form of entry if investment in adequate buildings is available. This would make the school?s budgetary position more viable, enabling it to compete more effectively with other schools.

The capacity of the other secondary schools is likely to remain as at present, i.e. Orleans Park and Waldegrave would admit 200 pupils per year and Teddington would admit 240 pupils per year.?

i dont think my neighbourhood will be out of clifden catchment. so yes we will suffer if we cant use it. right now twickenham academy needs students from all communities & it gets oversubscribed by sep 2013, where to go ?

Hamptonhillbilly, I just noticed this post from you:

"BayJay, please tell me if I'm missing something - if about 150 Richmond Borough kids are starting at a catholoic secondary every year (obviously outside the Borough) then if a Catholic secondary School opens at Clifden then won't a lot more than 50 start there in its first year, rather than starting outside the Borough."
Yes, I agree. It is planned to be 5 form entry, so 150 children will start there in Year 7.

"but a Catholic Secondary at Clifden will still free up a fair number of community school places"
The bulk of places freed up will be in those out-of-borough Catholic Secondaries, rather than in-borough community schools.