New Secondary schools for Richmond!

[BayJay]

Richmond Council recently published a White Paper outlining plans for Secondary education in the borough (cabnet.richmond.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=23719). They want new 6th forms in every school, and would need to decrease current Yr7 intakes to accomodate that. To offset those decreases they are talking about creating two new secondary schools. One of those new schools would be a Roman Catholic school.

The Roman Catholic community in the borough are currently disadvantaged by the "link" system (www.st-marys.richmond.sch.uk/Newsletter%20Link%20letter%20for%202011%20links%20(2).pdf). Because the Catholic primaries are not linked to any secondaries in the borough, their children tend to go to a combination of out-of-borough Catholic secondaries (which are mostly rated as Outstanding), grammar schools and private schools, though some of the girls do go to Waldegrave, which is not part of the link system. Note that there is no reason, in principle, why the Catholic Secondaries couldn't be linked to local community schools, but because many of their children have other options, they simply don't meet the "25% rule" required to form a link. (See an example set of transfer figures at www.st-james.richmond.sch.uk/Admin/Uploads/Docs/StJamesSchool_Parents_NewsLetter_270910.pdf).

This raises several questions in my mind:

1. Does the problem necessarily need to be solved by providing a Catholic Secondary, or are there alternative solutions that would benefit the community as a whole (e.g. reforming the link system)?
2. Does the majority of the Catholic community specifically want to be educated separately from the rest of us, or is it the case that, like everyone else, they simply want an outstanding education for their children, and find that the Catholic route is often the best way of achieving that?
3. If Catholics had more options for transferring to outstanding community schools locally (as many already do, to Waldegrave), would they choose those options over travelling to a single-faith school in a neighbouring borough?
4. I accept that there will always be very religious people who want to segregate themselves, but would I be right in asserting that there are also large numbers of Catholics who would be happy to attend community schools, provided that gave them the same level of academic excellence that can be found in many Catholic options?
5. If a new Catholic secondary school is created, it is likely to have an entrance policy that requires a priest's reference (as per the majority of existing Catholic schools). How do people feel about that?
6. If a state-funded Catholic School is created in the borough, would non-Catholic parents also like the option of sending their children there, provided they weren't barred by the admission system?

I'd be interested to hear your opinions!

Jeev, priviet is correct that non-Catholics are not barred from teaching at Catholic schools. The issue there is that faith schools currently have the right to discriminate in employment of teachers if they want to. There is a specific opt-out of equalities legislation for faith school employment policies. It is a controversial issue for many teachers. However, the schools don't always exercise that right.

Bayjay - i am a little confused...you say you would not like a VA school, however, as stated previously, you said that your children currently attend a VA CofE school ???

priviet, they attend an existing VA school. I didn't ask for it to be created as a VA school. There are very good historical reasons for it having that status. The modern way to create a new faith school is via the Faith Academy model.

Besides, I've also said that if the Catholic Education Service were to follow the lead of the Church of England in opening up their admissions, many of my objections to a VA school at Clifden would evaporate. And no, that doesn't mean a "short term deal" on admissions would suffice. It would require a change in their national policy to convince me.

Bayjay - you say you didn't ask for it to be created as a VA school, but surely you knew it was before you sent your children there? If you are so opposed to a VA school, then why send your children to one? ... confused.com

priviet, I explained in my post of Tue 08-Nov-11 09:51:35 my reasons for not campaigning locally about existing VA schools admissions. In summary, that is a campaign that is already happening at a national level. I got interested in the whole subject of faith schools when I was researching my options for my own children's schooling, and I have been following the national debate ever since.

I have no objection to my children's school being a VA school (as I explained in my last post, that is for historical reasons). I like the fact that it has a percentage of open admissions, and would like to see that percentage increase in line with the national trend. I will make that view known in any internal consultation about the admissions policy.

Council will consult on Catholic Secondary School (Council press release Nov 08): ' . . Cllr Paul Hodgins, Richmond Council Cabinet Member for Schools, said:?This Council is committed to secondary school capacity, quality, and choice for all residents. As part of our overall programme for our secondaries, including the support for sixth forms, increasing capacity at the right timeto meet rising demand, and supporting schools to see quality rise further,we continued the Council's longstanding supportof adding a Catholic secondary to our family of schools.

?The Diocese of Westminster has applied to the Government for permission to consult on the use of the Clifden Road site. Upon approval they will be able to formally apply to us. As and when we receive an indication of this formal submission, we will conduct our own full public consultation.

?The debate over a new Catholic school has understandably been vigorous, with strong feelings on both sides. There are many issues involved, including the role of faith schools in our system, capacity and quality for all residents, and the use of public funds. We will ensure these issues are addressed in detail in our consultation, and that people will be able to make their views known in a clear and open manner.

?We have made commitments to both support the introduction of a Catholic Secondary School and listen to the views of residents. We will honour both commitments, and we will make a decision based on all factors. We are working for an outstanding secondary system that meets the needs of all residents, and we will make decisions in that context."'

florist - thanks for clarifying. I just caught up with the news that Oona has gone on leave of absence. www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2011/11/04/new-director-takes-over-at-the-catholic-education-service/
Priviet - Catholic schools set their own employment policies and are exempt from key equalities legislation. www.cesew.org.uk/standard.asp?id=11059. They favour teachers and non teaching staff who are Catholics and are also allowed to discriminate in their recruitment and employment policies. Applicants can be rejected and staff barred from promotion if they are not Catholic. Staff can even be dismissed if their behavior outside school is deemed 'incompatible' with the school?s religion.

Chris what happens if the Diocese application is rejected or if they do not submit proposal to the council. Will there be no consultation at all on use of clifden road? will the council not look at other school options or will they just stop the purchase of clifden road site?

Jeev: The Council would then have to hold a competition for an Academy in the normal way, inviting proposals from anyone: it is the decision to bypass this process and go straight for one proposal only that has caused the present row.

The recent competition in N Kingston shows how this is done:

See: [[http://www.kingston.gov.uk/final_seminar_report.pdf New Secondary School Competition, Kingston
upon Thames: Report from the seminar for potential proposers held on 18 May 2010]] and [[http://www.kingston.gov.uk/stp526_kingston_comp.pdf 'Determination: Under the powers conferred on us by schedule 2 to the Education and
Inspections Act 2006, we hereby determine that the proposed new
secondary school in North Kingston shall be established by the
Kingston Education Trust from 1 September 2015.']]

BayJay, it isn't a quote I'm referring to it's me paraphrasing your question 3 imlying you think parents just want a good school and may not travel outside the Borough anyway - I'm clarifying that 950 kids do just that everyday to attend a Catholic Secondary.
All the data is available from LBRT sources - take a look yourself.

Littlemissmuppet - how will only 25 places be freed up in Community schools if so many kids now travel outside the Borough to attend a Catholic secondary and the figure this September was 150 + that is roughly the number of places that will be availableif Clifden opens as a Catholic secondary as promised by the council?

re options aside from VA the Archdiocese won't agree to provide 10% of funding + a likely 2 million refurbishment costs so I can't see where that debate is going?.

hamptonhillbilly, good morning. I'm sorry, but its quite difficult to follow your arguments when you paraphrase quotes, unless you make it very clear. Can you see how I might have mistaken that sentence as a statement of your opinion? I don't want to sound patronising (sorry I don't know how to say this in any other way that won't sound patronising), but a bit of punctuation goes a long way in helping people to understand what you're saying.

I'm very familiar with the council's figures as I've scrutinised them quite extensively. I also know that its important to link to original sources when quoting figures so that other people (who may not be so familiar with the figures) can follow up your argument if they want to. That is one benefit of a debate in an internet forum like this as opposed to the pages of a newspaper, or a verbal debate, where figures are often thrown around irresponsibly and have to be taken at face value, leading to a culture of mistrust.

On the specific numbers, a Catholic VA school may free up a small number of places at Christs and Waldegrave (but it can't be assumed that some Catholic parents will not still prefer those schools). As I said before, the situation is likely to change dramatically if the Linked School policy is dropped.

When you say "re options aside from VA the Archdiocese won't agree to provide 10% of funding + a likely 2 million refurbishment costs so I can't see where that debate is going?."
I think you're repeating priviet's argument along the lines of "the church won't fund an academy because they won't get 100% admissions". If so, I agree that some discussion will be needed, but I'm hopeful that they will come to see the community benefits of the Academy option (especially bearing in mind that it will be much cheaper for them). It is not in their interests to walk away from this site. Nor is it in their interests to force through an outcome that local people aren't happy with.

hamptonhillbilly - I'm completely confused. Are all those Catholics that would currently travel outside the Borough planning on suddenly switching allegiance to the local community schools if they don't get the new Clifden school?

Lets all be brutally honest here. Lot of Catholics go to out of borough Catholic schools like London Oratory because they are top schools. There are great catholic schools close to close to our boundaries, so travel is not an issue. I also know kids who go to Oratory from Twickenham and are not worried about the travel hardship.

So what a Clifden Catholic VA will end up doing is a) create a safety net for those who cant get into neighboruing Catholic schools and give local Catholics an "opt out" of local academies. b) give catholics outside Richmond an acccess to a Catholic school that is closer to them. c) Further reduce choices for local non catholic minority groups.
No wonder for Catholics it is a fantastic deal and worth the token investment for a privilege for 125 years, giving exclusive privileged access.

Bayjay - you say you won.t be satisfied with Catholic school on the site until its admissions criteria are changed "nationally". I am not sure if you are fighting a local battle or a national campaign. Do you live in or near Richmond and in the interests of transparency how much is Accord spending on the RISC campaign locally - you see I don.t get the sense that you want a positive resolution to the site unless it is completely on your terms.

jeev, I don't disagree with your 'brutally honest' picture generally, but I think we also need to respect the fact that there are people who genuinely want a Catholic education over and above a "good school". I don't think they are in the majority, but their views are important and carry a lot of weight. That's not to concede that they have a 'right' to a Catholic education (as is often asserted), but nor do people have the right to deny their genuine wish for one.

I think we also need to recognise that most (but not all) of those good Catholic schools outside the borough are very popular, and local Catholics cannot guarantee getting a place at them. In that sense the Catholic population have similar anxieties to the many non-Catholics who worry about whether they will get into Orleans/Teddington/Waldegrave. Having a Catholic school at Clifden would help to counter their anxiety. My problem with it is that by making it a VA school it addresses the anxieties of Catholic parents, while leaving others out in the cold. I can see the attraction for the council : a high quality Catholic school, which repatriates children of aspirational families into the borough will improve their league table results (remember they are top of the league for primary schools, and want to achieve the same for secondary schools). However, all that aside, I think these issues can be addressed in other ways, that are less controversial.

florist, I am helping to fight a local campaign. I am also interested in the national campaign. Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

I live in Twickenham. Click on my name at the top of any of my posts and you can read my profile.

You will need to contact Accord (or RISC) about how much involvement Accord have in the local campaign. I have no idea. I expect they have bigger fish to fry.

"I don't get the sense that you want a positive resolution to the site unless it is completely on your terms"
I do want a positive resolution for the site, and I want it to be on as many people's terms as possible. I'm interested in your views, but there's no need for you to keep attacking me personally. I don't represent RISC, and I don't represent Accord. I just support them.

Ok Bay Jay I understand that you live in Twickenham so your children stand to directly benefit if there is a Community or academy school as opposed to a VA Catholic school . However the rest of the children in the borough have very little chance of benefitting or accessing this school .

If you refer back to seenbutnotheards last comment. Bearing this in mind a Catholic academy with 50/50 intake would not serve anyone effectively except for those like yourself living in Twickenham. There would still be over 50% of Catholic children having to travel out of borough and the other 50% of places would be filled with those living on the doorstep of the school so of no benefit at all to the wider borough. Infact it is doubtful that even all of the children in the nearest catholic school St.James' would gain a place. I would totally understand the church not wanting to put all of that money (even at a slightly smaller running cost) into that school when so many of its children still struggle to gain a place and ar having to make long journeys out of borough.

As was noted at the council meeting Catholic children need this school now not in 5/6 years time!

You are supporting a campaign that gives YOUR children in Twickenham a fantastic choice but does NOT give that choice to the rest of the borough!

In reply to your earlier comment about a Catholic school only poss freeing up a few places in Waldegrave and one other school I would like to say you are very wrong in limiting it to those 2 schools alone. Quite a number of the children in my parish go to Orleans as they were not even able to get into a Catholic primary school despite applying, let alone an out of borough secondary. The provision of catholic secondary school would be the choice too of many of these parents too so places potentially would be freed up there. In additon those Catholics in Teddington who go to Teddington park due to losing the link with a wimbledon catholic school will be freeing up places there.

At the council meeting it was noted that Catholic children need this school now not in 5/6 years time. They also have a right to expect continuity of education and choice in there own borough . The council made it clear that they do have a 10year plan for improving the existing schools, introducing 6th forms and ensuring that ALL children have places in the future.

At this present time there are over 200 places free in the borough which parents are not taking up. The council are clealry working hard to improve these schools to make them places of choice. How unfair then would it be to build another community school in twickenham that gives YOUR children more choice, Catholic children NO choice but to continue going out of borough and Whitton children 5 -6 years of a desert place for their local school Twickenham acedemy as it loses money and students. Where does that leave Twickenham academy in 5/6 years time? Prob right back to where it started with parents not wanting to send their kids there as it won't have had the money and the students to continue to improve and again we would have the same issues

Is that providing a fair choice for Whitton children or for any of the rest of the boroughs children ? I think not!

BayJay I agree with your response to both my and florist's post. All- Lets take a breather and congratulate and thanks BayJay for the incredible job she has done in moderating this discussion. And please lets not attack anyone personally and keep this discussion constructive and healthy.

Mir4, hello, and welcome back. I started this thread long before the site in Clifden Rd was announced. I'm not denying the fact that my children are affected by this, but I care about all of the children in the borough and would like to see a situation where they all have access to good schools. I realise a Catholic VA school would be attractive to Catholic parents over a wider area than an Academy would, but I care about non-Catholic children over that wider area too. If I remember right, you live close to RPA don't you? RPA would like to attract local Catholic families as part of their recovery plan (see posts by gmsin earlier in this thread). In the event that you were not able to access Clifden, what do you think of LittleMrsMuppet's idea of having a Catholic chaplaincy service at RPA?

Another interesting thing I've now found out is that people living close to RPA will probably live closer to the St John Bosco Catholic school than the Clifden site. Of course, this school does appear to have had an even more checkered history than RPA, so I can completely understand why Richmond Catholics aren't queueing up to send their children there. However, it does emphasise that it's a quality education rather simply a "Catholic" education or distance that is the driving force behind the campaign for a Catholic school in Borough.

BayJay, just to confim I went back to your questions by saying: just going back to your questions having tried to match up some data with them:
Catholics just want good schools and probably don't bother/ won't bother travelling outside the Borough anyway (Q3)

I then responded with the stats of 950 kids every day travelling out of the Borough to attend a Catholic secondary.

Not entirely sure where the confusion is there?

I'm reluctant to join Jeev in congratulating your competency here BayJay as your are trying to prevent my child attending a Catholic Secondary in the Borough - a situation only found here and in Bromley within Greater London. Sophistry doesn't really alter this. Having been promised this school which would address the current inequality I'm still lost as to what your original questions really are? Could you try re-wording them without implying Catholic's are equivalent to Amish? A slightly wide of the mark comment given that Ofsted inspection data between 2005 and 2009 showed that 41% of Catholic schools made an outstanding contribution to their communities compared to 24% of all schools.

The minutes of the Oct 17 meeting of the Education and Children?s Services Overview and Scrutiny Committee have been published. Section 21 Educational Priorities covers the plans for the Clifden Road site and summarises the numerous answers that Cllr Hodgins and the Director of Education gave to questions, including these:
' . . · Faith academies were currently not welcomed by any Diocesan Board, as they limited the number of faith places. This was expected to change in the future when various issues had been resolved between them and the government.
· The Catholic population in Richmond upon Thames was estimated to be around 12 %, with 11.6 % of primary places offered by the borough being in Catholic schools.
· The Cabinet had not committed any funding to the Clifden Road site, aside from the money needed to purchase it. Funding options would be explored, should the Council be in a position to open its own school at a later date.
· If the Archdiocese was unsuccessful in opening a new VA school, the Director would not, at this time, recommend opening a new community school as this would harm improvements being made in other borough secondary schools . . '

hamptonhillbilly, I'm now starting to understand your post (of Wed 09-Nov-11 16:26:29). You were referring back to the question I posed at the start of this thread in February, namely ....

"3) If Catholics had more options for transferring to outstanding community schools locally (as many already do, to Waldegrave), would they choose those options over travelling to a single-faith school in a neighbouring borough? "

In response to that question you said "from LBRT data about 950 children travel outside the Borough everyday to attend a Catholic Secondary in another Borough."
I don't know which council document that figure comes from (please tell me). However, I'm prepared to accept that it is correct. As an aside you might also be interested to know that 1727 children travel in to the borough every day to attend our community schools.

You then said "This SEptember 2011 146 Richmond Borough children transferred to Catholic Secondary schools outside the Borough and 53 to Richmond community Schools and Academies."
Again, I don't know where the figures are from but I will take them at face value.

Next you said "A new Catholic Secondary in the Borough would therefore free up about 150 community places in it's first year as the likely initiaL intake"
This is the bit I don't understand. Surely you mean to say that 53 community places would be freed up? (and that would assume that all of those 53 wanted to go to a Catholic school rather than a community school, for which there is no evidence). If that's not what you mean, then please explain your logic for the 150 figure.

Finally "I understand that if not all places were filled by Catholic demand remaining places would go to other faiths/ non faith pupils."
Yes, VA schools must open up surplus places to the community, but that is different to providing open places as a priority as CofE VA schools do. If the school is oversubscribed by Catholic families (as are other good Catholic secondary schools in neighbouring boroughs), then there will be no open places, not even for children living next door to the school.

Right, I'm going out tonight, so I'll have to pick this conversation up later .....

I think hamptonhillbilly is confusing Year 7 numbers with total Years 7-11 numbers. The document here (scroll to end) from the council gives numbers of pupils in each Catholic primary school transferring to community primary schools.

By the way, good point that if the link system is removed, more Catholics may voluntarily choose e.g. Orleans than at present even if there was a VA school.

However, only 7 pupils from Sacred Heart are likely to be taking up one of the 200 Year 7 places at Teddington, while about 15 from St James's are likely to be going to Waldegrave (also 200 places).

Also, check out this article in the evening standard about the crisis in places due to impact on secondary schools by 2014. It is likely that Hounslow and Wandsworth pupils will become increasingly interested in our academies. I do not understand where the '200 places in academies' figures comes from unless this is also a confusion of Year 7 and Years 7-11 - see offer numbers here and below which suggest that only 41 Year 7 places were unfilled, unless lots dropped out. And Hampton Academy seems to be oversubscribed even now.

I've pasted the collated stats below if you don't have time to follow the links.

YEAR 7 PLACES
Christ's ? 120 places, 140 offers
Grey Court ? 240 places, 261 offers (NB: will reduce to 200)
Hampton Academy ? 210 places, 226 offers
Orleans Park ? 200 places, 200 offers
Richm'd Park Acad. ? 220 places, 187 offers
Teddington - 240 places, 240 offers (NB: will reduce to 200)
Twick'm Academy ? 180 places, 172 offers)
Waldegrave ? 200 places, 200 offers

NEW VA 'CLIFDEN RC SCHOOL'??
YEAR 7 pupils = 150
TOTAL PUPILS = 750

NB: TOTAL PRIMARY SCHOOL PUPILS = around 2,200 (about 600 go private or out of borough) - I just added up stated admission numbers.

YEAR 7 secondary pupils:
2010/11 = 1,380
2011/2012 = 1,610 places, 1626 offers

(NB some schools have expanded temporarily but will reduce numbers down by about 200 when sixth forms in place).

FORMER YEAR 6 Catholic primary pupils transferring to
Catholic secondary schools
2010/11 = 219

FORMER YEAR 6 Catholic primary pupils transferring to other secondary schools
2010/11 - 36
Sacred Heart - probably Teddington = 6
St James's - probably Waldegrave = 15)

BayJay, please tell me if I'm missing something - if about 150 Richmond Borough kids are starting at a catholoic secondary every year (obviously outside the Borough) then if a Catholic secondary School opens at Clifden then won't a lot more than 50 start there in its first year, rather than starting outside the Borough. (150 started at Catholic Seconday's outside the Borough 2 months ago).
Ok, a fair amount will go to the outer-Borough Schools as Siblings are there/ it is closer etc but a Catholic Secondary at Clifden will still free up a fair number of community school places which meet the risc inclusivity objectives. These places would surely have otherwise gone to Catholic kids who either can't get into a Catholic secondary elsewhere, or whose parents don't want to etc.