New Secondary schools for Richmond!

[BayJay]

Richmond Council recently published a White Paper outlining plans for Secondary education in the borough (cabnet.richmond.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=23719). They want new 6th forms in every school, and would need to decrease current Yr7 intakes to accomodate that. To offset those decreases they are talking about creating two new secondary schools. One of those new schools would be a Roman Catholic school.

The Roman Catholic community in the borough are currently disadvantaged by the "link" system (www.st-marys.richmond.sch.uk/Newsletter%20Link%20letter%20for%202011%20links%20(2).pdf). Because the Catholic primaries are not linked to any secondaries in the borough, their children tend to go to a combination of out-of-borough Catholic secondaries (which are mostly rated as Outstanding), grammar schools and private schools, though some of the girls do go to Waldegrave, which is not part of the link system. Note that there is no reason, in principle, why the Catholic Secondaries couldn't be linked to local community schools, but because many of their children have other options, they simply don't meet the "25% rule" required to form a link. (See an example set of transfer figures at www.st-james.richmond.sch.uk/Admin/Uploads/Docs/StJamesSchool_Parents_NewsLetter_270910.pdf).

This raises several questions in my mind:

1. Does the problem necessarily need to be solved by providing a Catholic Secondary, or are there alternative solutions that would benefit the community as a whole (e.g. reforming the link system)?
2. Does the majority of the Catholic community specifically want to be educated separately from the rest of us, or is it the case that, like everyone else, they simply want an outstanding education for their children, and find that the Catholic route is often the best way of achieving that?
3. If Catholics had more options for transferring to outstanding community schools locally (as many already do, to Waldegrave), would they choose those options over travelling to a single-faith school in a neighbouring borough?
4. I accept that there will always be very religious people who want to segregate themselves, but would I be right in asserting that there are also large numbers of Catholics who would be happy to attend community schools, provided that gave them the same level of academic excellence that can be found in many Catholic options?
5. If a new Catholic secondary school is created, it is likely to have an entrance policy that requires a priest's reference (as per the majority of existing Catholic schools). How do people feel about that?
6. If a state-funded Catholic School is created in the borough, would non-Catholic parents also like the option of sending their children there, provided they weren't barred by the admission system?

I'd be interested to hear your opinions!

"why do you only want inclusive schools in LBR from now on rather than retrospectively to re-designate all faith schools everywhere as non-faith inclusive community schools etc? I'm sure you've answered this somewhere in the threads you're running but can't find it"
I don't know if I've answered that before, but I'm happy to answer it now. There are many people who would like to redesignate all faith schools as community schools. It is the position of the BHA, who have many supporters. My opinion is that while people want faith schools, and actively choose them, then they should stay. I would say my position is in-line with the Accord Coalition who are working to achieve a situation where faith schools are more inclusive and less controversial. I signed up on their website as a supporter a couple of years ago, so I've been following what they do on a national level for some time. They are working to open up the admissions of all existing faith schools, as a matter of national policy, and so have recently been involved in lobbying on the Education Bill. They haven't achieved their aim yet, but they are making progress, so I'm satified that there would be no point in a local campaign to open up existing VA school admissions (besides, I wouldn't have the energy for another campaign at the same time as this one). Local campaigns can, however, have an impact on new schools. New schools are introduced in line with existing legislation, so local campaigns can work within that legislation to get the best outcome locally.

out of interest Bayjay - do you herd cats teach toddlers for a living?

kewcumber, no, and rest assured that if we were having this conversation in real time in a room somewhere I would have burst into tears and walked out long before now . However, the advantage of internet discussions is that you can walk away, count to 10, and come back to them later.

Most of the times I have got a bit ratty, its been because I was also trying to put my kids to bed / serve lunch / play monopoly / etc at the same time!

just wondering... I think you should consider it as a career.

I do find it very interesting what people feel is the best way to win others over to their argument (on both sides). Some people advocate for their views just by being who they are and barely saying anything and others leave a trail behind them that I suspect "their side" are watching with gritted teeth.

Thanks Bayjay - a bit vague but an interesting point of yours - 'My opinion is that while people want faith schools, and actively choose them, then they should stay.' the current petitions are about 2300 in favour of a Catholic secondary and about 2800 against. The Borough has about 182000 residents of which about 178000 don't seem bothered either way. This after an exhaustive campaign by yourselves at risc and the RT Times. I'd guess the 2300 know exactly what they're voting for/ have actively chosen to vote for it but in contrast to your statement above you say they can't have one, while I'm not so sure the 2800 against are in full possession of the background facts to this - one man I encountered signing your petition in the chip shop near Twickenham green thought there were too many Muslim Schools around anyway when I asked him why he was signing it! I'm sure this isn't typical? but I don't think the same ingorance is likely in the yes voters? i.e. are you in favour of a new Catholic Secondary School - pretty simple as opposed to your 'We, the undersigned, petition the council to ensure that every state-funded school opening in the borough from now on is inclusive, so that no child can be denied a place in a good local school because of the religion or belief of their parents.' - can you see the vaguenes ?

hamptonhillbilly, I don't think you can make a direct comparision between the numbers.

The RISC campaign is pulling together people from all backgrounds to agree on a common cause that appeals to many people for different reasons. I know why I signed it, and why my friends and aquaintances are signing it, but I don't know what everyone else's opinion is. To me that is not a reason to discount it. To me, that is a reason to take it seriously, and do further research to find out what all the issues are.

In contrast, the Catholic School campaign is being promoted within schools and churches, by headteachers and priests, to a tight community who all agree that they want a Catholic School. Many Catholic children are signing it. The option of an inclusive Catholic Academy is not being presented to them, and they do not yet know whether the imminent consultation on the Linked School Policy will vastly improve their school choice or not.

Besides, the two petitions are not opposites. An inclusive Catholic Academy would satisfy the wording of both.

My personal opinion, if I am allowed to state it, is that RISC just seem to be against choice within education, in their "inclusion" policies. They have their own agenda, their own philosophy (or belief if I may be as bold), and they seem to want everybody to fit into their mold.

Most community schools are already inclusive in pretty much the way RISC want them to be. So I don't understand why they don't focus on raising the standard of education in the community schools that already exist in the borough.

It seems odd to try and dictate that future schools should all follow their idea of a good school, when there are so many good schools that are not governed in line with those ideas. It also seems odd to take choice away from people, and to the benefit of whom?

We do live in a multicultural society, and I think refusing the choices of minority groups (which the Catholics to all intents and purposes are in this borough) is the opposite of inclusion, when it comes to society as a whole.

In other words, I do not see what is so inclusive about excluding Catholic schools, and thereby "forcing" Catholics to either send their children out of the borough, or move.

And yes, I do suspect I appear to be like a willful toddler, or another bear in a china shop. I am afraid I am not a skilled orator. And patronising me is a little like pouring water on the goose.

Good morning QuintessentialShadow. How would you feel about the choice of a Catholic Academy, or a Christian Academy, or a joint Catholic-CofE Academy?. Should they not be considered as options alongside the VA option? After all, their existence is the product of national coalition policy, and LBRuT council want all local schools to become academies as soon as possible too.

Also, would you not agree that non-Catholics, or non-practising Catholics, may have valid reasons for wanting to attend a Catholic school too? Can you see how (effectively) hanging a sign on the door saying "PRACTISING CATHOLICS ONLY!" might be offensive to them? (Especially when their other nearest school already has a sign on the door saying "GIRLS ONLY!").

As I said in another post very recently, provision of an inclusive faith school would provide choice and diversity for everyone. In contrast provision of a VA school only provides additional choice to practising Catholics.

BayJay, a fair point on scrutinising the figures but you could be said to have dodged the key point - 178000 out of 182000 residents don't seem bothered about a Catholic Secondary. Also I know it's gone around and around and it is counter to your petition but a Catholic Secondary will dramatically improve access to inclusive schools for other kids anyway as Catholic kids free up places in inclusive schools to attend a new Catholic Secondary .Whereas it doesn't seem a straight-forward case of either Catholic Secondary or yet another community school/ inclusive school? It's hard to pin down exactly the Archdiocese funding but 7 million has been banded about whereas there is no bandying about of any extra external funds for another community school. Another community school may never materialise whereas there is clearly a significant will and a plan for a Catholic Secondary - that is what is on the table not a range of options. It does seem risc is ideological (humanist?) rather than pragmatic - to create more inclusive places? Maybe that's why it hasn't captured the residents support? After all the RT Times is clearly a mouthpiece for risc with circulation of 40K copies but still only 2800 have signed the risc petition including the man in the chip shop who thought there would be a Muslim School! - I'm not sure what will be in the RT Times when this issue concludes- Surely they can't use any more pictures of police getting long-service awards?

hamptonhillbilly, I repeat that it is not my petition. I don't represent RISC, I'm just one of their many supporters. Anyway, here goes ..

"178000 out of 182000 residents don't seem bothered about a Catholic Secondary"
Most of them haven't heard about it, don't have kids, have girls, don't live in Twickenham, have other things on their mind ... whatever. They certainly aren't getting a regular push from the equivalent of a headteacher or a priest to take action. Many of those 40K copies of the RTT are pushed through people's front doors and go straight out with the recycling. It is incredibly difficult to raise support for local campaigns generally, and I think 3000 is pretty good. It has certainly made the council sit up and take notice.

"a Catholic Secondary will dramatically improve access to inclusive schools for other kids anyway as Catholic kids free up places in inclusive schools"
Do you have a source of figures for that? No such figures have been published. I suspect they are much smaller than you imagine. The inequities of the current Linked School Policy mean that local Catholics don't have access to the more popular local secondaries, apart from Christs and Waldegrave. There is also no reason to suggest that those Catholics that do currently go to Christs/Waldegrave would necessarily want to switch to Clifden. Nobody has looked at that specific group in detail, and asked them what they think.

"there is no bandying about of any extra external funds for another community school"
Of course there isn't. That is because the council have (so far) bypassed the normal process of opening up the site to competition. They have not had discussions with any other groups about alternative proposals. They have only talked to the Diocese of Westminster. That is one reason why people are frustrated.

Right, I have to go out now, so we will have to finish this conversation later.....

You keep answering questions with questions, rather than actually answering.

However:
QuintessentialDead Mon 10-Oct-11 14:06:32
BayJay, to answer your question, I would be positive to a school that is inclusive, as long as the school keeps it Catholic ethos, and that all the parents regardless of their Faith or lack thereof, are keen to support the school, PTA and school life.

I am personally positive to a Catholic school that includes others, like I said above under my Halloween name on the other thread you are running.

BayJay, re your answer s at 1150 - 1) the council have to take notice of any petition above 1000 so risc has only made it sit up in the same way it would had 1000 people signed any other petition . 2) Obviously I can't provide exact figures but you must accept the likely shift of Catholic pupils to a new Catholic Secondary will free up the places those kids would otherwise have occupied in community schools. I don't think Catholic birth rates will elevate to meet all the new available places! I'm not sure how the provision of a new Secondary doesn't create more spaces elsewhere given the priority for Borough residents.3) I'm not sure it's fair to say the Council have bypassed the 'normal' process of opening up a site to competition when they have had a long-standing manifesto committment to a Catholic secondary which meets the equality requirement as there is currently no Catholic Secondary provision in the Borough- there is plenty of inclusive provision though with 200 spare places in community schools. Apart from the fact the Council have promised something which has a significant demand from Catholic residents there is neither a demand or a manifesto committment to more inclusive places/ schools.
Why didn't risc set up the petition when the Council first committed itself?

Speaking of the Linked School Policy it says on the Richmond Council website that there is a planned consultation on the removal of the 'Linked School Criterion' for Grey Court, Orleans Park and Teddington schools starting on the 15th Nov.

"I would be positive to a school that is inclusive, as long as the school keeps it Catholic ethos, and that all the parents regardless of their Faith or lack thereof, are keen to support the school, PTA and school life"

QuintessentialShadow, in that case we have no quarrel, because I would support a Catholic school like that too. That would have to be an Academy rather than a VA school though, unless the Catholic Education Service were to change its policy on VA school admissions.

"the council have to take notice of any petition above 1000 so risc has only made it sit up in the same way it would had 1000 people signed any other petition"
Yes, and I think RISC would have stopped at 1000 too, if the other petition hadn't started up in direct competition. I believe that was their original intention. The RISC petition was only raised to trigger a debate, and in response to an earlier Catholic petition that also triggered a debate. They have continued to collect signatures for it because the (second) Catholic petition has been set up in direct competition to it. That may seem a bit silly to the casual observer, but when you see the statements regarding the petitions made by the Diocese of Westminster in their application to Michael Gove, the issue becomes a little more serious.

I've got to go out again now (school run), so will be back later.

Some points have been made about where we should put our efforts and passuon right now. The biggest short-term contribution anyone can make to the development of borough secondary schools is to encourage parents to apply for the academies, especially Richmond Park Academy. Nearby Catholic primaries along with the other primaries could make a real contribution here. Instead a new Catholic secondary that will make it even easier for Catholic parents to be exempt from the effort to ?make all the secondary schools in the borough outstanding?. Understandably, other parents are not happy about that.
On the point about minorities and equal opportunities, non catholic minorities have far less equal opportunities for secondary schools than the catholics. So what about them ?

A Catholic VA school could further aggravate the inequality of opportunities for non catholic minorties and is it fair to provide privilege to one minority group at the expense of other minority groups ?

Jeev I am not aware of any other minority in Richmond that would have the numbers required to sustain a secondary school.

The exception to this (and not exactly a minority!), would of course be if the council decided to create a boys school on the site.

Again, with the exception of those who are anti-faith (who I am repeatedly told are in the minority in RISC) I really do not think that we would be having this conversation if all of the borough's schools were deemed to be 'outstanding'.

If the linked schools policy goes and the Clifden site is another non-denomiational school, all this will mean is that residents in central twickenham get yet another school to choose from.

"I am not aware of any other minority in Richmond that would have the numbers required to sustain a secondary school"

There are certainly lots of children from Indian and other backgrounds at our local private schools (The Mall, St Catherine's etc) as well as our local community primaries. Free schools can be set up wih just one or two forms of entry, so of course they could sustain their own Secondary if they chose to apply for one and found a suitable site.

For info, there is already a call for an Islamic school in neighbouring Hounslow.

I know about the call for an Islamic School BayJay, I think that you have linked to this before and I understand, given that there is a significant Muslim population in Houslow why there would be a call for such a school.

As you have said before, the Clifden site is too big for a free school. Given the ethnic population in Richmond's primary schools though, as I have said, I think the only in-borough minority that could fill a school, year on year would be a Catholic.

Do you disagree?

seenbutnotheard - I am not advocating that there should be new schools for every minority group as a) how will it help community cohesion if everyone is in their own silo ? We live in a diverse and multi racial, religious and socio-economic society in Richmond, where integration of all minority groups is very important. b) as i said earlier if every group gets their exclusive schools, no one will attend the academies and they could be left with empty places and fail.

BayJay - Not everyone in a socio-economic minority group can afford private education or move out of the borough. Does anyone care about their needs?

Hamptonhillbilly, I'm coming back to some of your points made at 12.22 ....

"Obviously I can't provide exact figures"
No, and unfortunately, neither can the council. Their published story on secondary school admissions is largely qualitative at the moment. They have no equivalent 5-year forecast to the one produced by the Opposition Education Spokesman Malcolm Eady. Hopefully that will soon change in response to the challenges that have been raised.

"I'm not sure it's fair to say the Council have bypassed the 'normal' process"
Under Section 10 of the Education Act the normal process for councils to set up a new school is to have an open competition. After discussions with the council, the Diocese have applied to Michael Gove for the special permission required to bypass that process, and publish proposals outside of competition. Michael Gove's response is expected some time soon.

"BayJay - Not everyone in a socio-economic minority group can afford private education or move out of the borough. Does anyone care about their needs?"
Jeev, I wasn't saying that they should. I was just answering seenbutnotheard's point.

I have local friends who are Muslims. My children were at nursery with their children and we often discussed our primary school choices. They felt alienated by the system, and by the fact that they only had one realistic choice (the local community school) whereas others had 2 or 3 choices (depending on whether they went to a CofE or Catholic church respectively). Eventually they went private, but not just "because they could afford it". I see how hard they work, and the sacrifices that they make to be able to achieve that. They have signed the RISC petition.

Just as an aside, there are numerous Indian children at my dcs RC primary. I think Indian Catholics are an even smaller minority than Indians of other religions.

I live very close to Richmond Park Academy, which has many spaces to fill. When I look at this school, and see how few of the students are local to the borough, and how they behave on the way from school, and the police presence on the streets, it makes me question the wisdom of sending children out of their own community for their education. There is no sense of belonging, no pride in the neighbourhood.

QuintessentialShadow, I agree that it is better for children to go to their local school, not just for the reasons that you state, but also because it is better for the environment. That is one reason why the only type of Catholic school I would be happy with on the Clifden site would be one with open admissions, so that other local children could choose it too. I know a few people who live in Clifden Rd who are pretty nervous about the prospect of this school opening in their street. The fact that they will not even be able to send their own children there (if it was a VA school) adds insult to injury.

Here's an interesting hypothetical question for you (based on a suggestion by someone else earlier in this thread). If all the Children at your RC primary were to go to RPA, and the Diocese were to provide a Catholic Chaplaincy there, so that their pastoral needs were taken care of, would you be interested? Presumably the fact that you live close to it would make that an attractive option, provided everyone supported it (?).