New Secondary schools for Richmond!

[BayJay]

Richmond Council recently published a White Paper outlining plans for Secondary education in the borough (cabnet.richmond.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=23719). They want new 6th forms in every school, and would need to decrease current Yr7 intakes to accomodate that. To offset those decreases they are talking about creating two new secondary schools. One of those new schools would be a Roman Catholic school.

The Roman Catholic community in the borough are currently disadvantaged by the "link" system (www.st-marys.richmond.sch.uk/Newsletter%20Link%20letter%20for%202011%20links%20(2).pdf). Because the Catholic primaries are not linked to any secondaries in the borough, their children tend to go to a combination of out-of-borough Catholic secondaries (which are mostly rated as Outstanding), grammar schools and private schools, though some of the girls do go to Waldegrave, which is not part of the link system. Note that there is no reason, in principle, why the Catholic Secondaries couldn't be linked to local community schools, but because many of their children have other options, they simply don't meet the "25% rule" required to form a link. (See an example set of transfer figures at www.st-james.richmond.sch.uk/Admin/Uploads/Docs/StJamesSchool_Parents_NewsLetter_270910.pdf).

This raises several questions in my mind:

1. Does the problem necessarily need to be solved by providing a Catholic Secondary, or are there alternative solutions that would benefit the community as a whole (e.g. reforming the link system)?
2. Does the majority of the Catholic community specifically want to be educated separately from the rest of us, or is it the case that, like everyone else, they simply want an outstanding education for their children, and find that the Catholic route is often the best way of achieving that?
3. If Catholics had more options for transferring to outstanding community schools locally (as many already do, to Waldegrave), would they choose those options over travelling to a single-faith school in a neighbouring borough?
4. I accept that there will always be very religious people who want to segregate themselves, but would I be right in asserting that there are also large numbers of Catholics who would be happy to attend community schools, provided that gave them the same level of academic excellence that can be found in many Catholic options?
5. If a new Catholic secondary school is created, it is likely to have an entrance policy that requires a priest's reference (as per the majority of existing Catholic schools). How do people feel about that?
6. If a state-funded Catholic School is created in the borough, would non-Catholic parents also like the option of sending their children there, provided they weren't barred by the admission system?

I'd be interested to hear your opinions!

Bayjay - to protect the investment the Church puts into the school would require typically a lease - 125 years is normal, but ususually the land owners (the Council in this case) will have the option for a 25 year break clause in the terms of the lease.
The Catholic VA school will get no more and no less rights over the school that other VA schools have including non faith VA schools.
I understand the site is quite restricted so there may be constraints on expansion on the site down the road whoever runs it but normally if there is demand a Catholic school usually will seek to expand where it doesn't jeopardise the educaiton of the existing kids - good to see that if the Catholic church provides a school you would be keen to see it expand numbers.
My worry would be that the Catholic church walks away from the cost, and the aggravation that the RISC campaign is unfairly generating. That wouldn't be good for education in Richmond or the council tax payer.

hamptonhillbilly, here goes:

what do risc want?
As a group they are asking for all future schools to be accessible to everyone, whatever their religion or belief. That does not rule out a faith school (many CofE schools have 100% open admissions). Some of the RISC supporters are parents at existing faith schools (my own children go to a CofE primary). They like the schools, but don't like the admissions systems.

"a new Catholic school with less public finance impact which will free up more inclusive school places, or no school at all, therefore no more inclusive school places?"
I haven't heard anyone calling for "no school at all". People want a full consultation, that includes options other than a VA school (e.g. A community school, a boys school, a Catholic Faith Academy, a joint CofE/Catholic Faith Academy. Let's look at all of the options).

but I can't see where the extra funding for a Richard Dawkins academy is coming from?
Where has that thought come from? I haven't heard anyone asking for that.

"Catholic taxpayers no less than any other taxpayer"
Yes, that gives them equal rights, not the much greater right to their own school with ring-fenced admissions. If there is a parental-demand argument for a Catholic school then great, let's have one, but everyone should be able to have equal access to it. I'm not a Catholic, but I did go to a Catholic Secondary school myself, and had a very good education, so I would consider it for my own children too. I know other people who are Catholic, but no longer go to church. They would like their children to attend a Catholic school, but don't want to have to start going to church to prove their worthiness for admission to a publicly funded school.

the Catholic community provides in excess of a further £20 million per annum to its schools for capital expenditure
Yes, that works out at about £25 per child per year. See the other thread at Wed 05-Oct-11 22:17:42 for the details. That money effectively comes directly from parents who pay into an annual fund (at my own children's school we pay in £45 per child per year). There is no reason why similar funds could not be set up at an academy option. I know Orleans Park has its own contribution fund.

It should be remembered that 30% of pupils in Catholic schools are not Catholic
Nationally, yes, but not in LBRuT. Catholic VA schools only allow in non-Catholics if they are undersubscribed by Catholics (they have to do that by law). In contrast, CofE schools tend to reserve a percentage of their places for "open" admissions. At my children's school the percentage is 30%. Many CofE schools now have 100% open admissions, especially the new ones.

Bayjay - you said : Yes, that gives them equal rights, not the much greater right to their own school with ring-fenced admissions.
Catholic schools are subject to the same admissions code as every other maintained school. The idea that Catholics have greater rights when they have to pay three times over: 10% capital costs, taxes like everyone else plus the fact 30% of places in Catholic schools are open to non Catholics where there isn't sufficient demand from Catholics.

You have really got to stop turning this in a Catholic them v. an inclusive us sort of debate. The only ones banging on about Catholic schools are RISC.

Beside A Catholic or non faith Academy or a free school may not be - subjec to their Funding agreement. An a council run school even assuming the council tax payer coughed up may not deliver the education wanted by local residents

SHOULD read academies and free schools may not be subject to the admissions code depends on their funding agreement which may not even be published as per West London Free School

Bayjay I am interested that you went to a Catholic school and you might want that option for your own children. May I ask what it is about a Catholic school that you value and why can't those value (in a secular sort of way) be adopted by Richmond's Community Schools.

florist, to answer your points:

"Catholic schools are subject to the same admissions code as every other maintained school"
Yes, but they are their own admissions authority, and they follow the national admissions guidance of the Catholic Education Service. Currently that guidance says that they must prioritise entry to Catholic children. In contrast, CofE schools are opening their doors to the wider community.

"they have to pay three times over"
See my previous post to hamptonhillbilly about funding. The same argument applies here.

"You have really got to stop turning this in a Catholic them v. an inclusive us sort of debate. The only ones banging on about Catholic schools are RISC."
I don't understand this point. I have consistently put forward arguments for the compromise solution of a Catholic Academy. That would satisfy the wording of both of the petitions.

Bayjay very clear. A Catholic academy should certainly be an option.

Catholic schools are their own admission authorities just like non faith schools, free schools and academies - I don't see why what applies in the rest of the country should apply to Richmond.
I am more interested however in what you see as the values of a Catholic school that make them attactive to non Catholics.

It's quite possible that a VA Catholic school is a pragmatic approach from the council - looking at Kingston, they carried out a consultation, found an alternative proposal to the CE school but it all seems to have stalled. I wouldn't mind if a RC school were one of two new schools.. What I find upsetting is the denial that 11 bulge classes for the last three years or so are going to have consequences by 2014/2015 - and other changes could give a more dramatic effect on demand before that. And the fact that the academies are on the edge of the borough so take just as many Wandsworth/Kingston/Hounslow children as Richmond whereas a Catholc school can ringfence by parish.

It shouldn't be a choice of either/or should it? But I can't trust this administration because they are now talking about another community school in the the ten-year plan.

"May I ask what it is about a Catholic school that you value and why can't those values (in a secular sort of way) be adopted by Richmond's Community Schools"
Every school has its own set of values. Each school is unique. Like most people I'd like to be able to choose the school where my children will be happiest, and where their academic needs will be best served. I will be looking at Twickenham Academy with an open mind when the time comes (I've already been to visit, and will do so again when the re-build is finished). I'm very keen on Orleans Park, because my eldest has an aptitude for maths and they have that as a specialism, however we may live too far away to get a place. The new Clifden school would be closer to us than either of those options, and I would like to be able to look at that with an equally open mind, whether it is a faith school or not. I don't want to be told that my children can't go there because we do not go to the right sort of church. If it is a Catholic school, and my children end up going there, then we will respect that ethos. I think that children benefit from learning alongside children with opinions that are different to their own. My own experience of attending a Catholic Secondary (as a non-Catholic) has given me the sort of insight and tolerance that some other people lack.

muminlondon - the issue shortage of places at maintained schools that parents want to send their children too. Catholic schools get criticised if they have a broad catchment area or (as you do) a narrow one (proximity) but I have never heard of a Catholic secondary school just for one parish - it wouldn;t be viable

Bayjay thank you for your comments.

You are not looking for something that is unreasonable but it is a wonder that the local community schools can't raise their game to satisfy what are very reasonable expectations.
The purpose of Catholic schools of course is not to pass exams. They are supposed to be about Catholic formation - not all of them prioritise the latter and some play the league table game to the detirment of educating the children in the same way as some non faith schools do.

Florist, Gumley House reserves proportions of places for certain deaneries, albeit large areas that equate to a borough. Only Waldegrave does something similar and has the highest percentage of RuT pupils of any school in the borough but obviously also just for girls. Grey Court now is so successful that it prioritises as many pupils from Kingston link schools as RuT ones through the link system. There are great schools here, not so great ones further away, but just look at the headlines in the local papers for the scrum for places about to ensue. (sigh)

oh kewcuymber were it trhat simple would these threads still be running?

All taxpayers contribute to the cost of the nation's schools; Catholic taxpayers no less than any other taxpayer. The suggestion, therefore, that Catholic schools are being unfairly funded by taxpayers is entirely fallacious. The Catholic community actually pays more for its schools as 10% of the capital expenditure has to be provided from the Catholic community, whereas it is provided by the Government for other maintained schools i.e. they receive 100% funding. In addition to their taxes, the Catholic community provides in excess of a further £20 million per annum to its schools for capital expenditure. It should be remembered that 30% of pupils in Catholic schools are not Catholic and this is therefore a contribution that could be viewed as to the good of society. It also saves Government and arguably other taxpayers money, which they would have to find, were pupils in Catholic voluntary-aided schools to be educated in community schools.

I'm slightly concerned by the idea of Catholic schools being mainly for the purpose of "Catholic formation". Good grief, if education is not the main priority then the state should not be sponsoring them in any fashion whatsoever. As a Catholic, I am drawn to church schools as they instill the same values as I try to at home. They also help enable children to grow up within a moral framework. A plus of a Catholic school over a "community" one is that they are able to devote more time to specifically Catholic values.

I can understand why a non-Catholic would want access to a Catholic school and whilst I'd agree that these needs could potentially be addressed at a community school - the same could be said for Catholics too. At university we had a Catholic chaplaincy - as I suspect is typical in the UK. In a similar vein, why can't the local parishes provide some level of specifically Catholic instruction for Catholics within their local community schools? There seems to be an eagerness to suggest that the lack of Catholic schools is in someway an unfairness that needs to be addressed by the council and the (mostly non-Catholic) community. However, I haven't seen any evidence of Catholics trying to "plug the gap" in Richmond by giving extra support etc to those children who are apparently failed and forced into non-Catholic schools.

"A Catholic academy should certainly be an option"
Florist, thankyou. When I see people coming to that conclusion, it justifies the time and effort that I have put into this thread. I would like to see the Catholic community discussing it as an option. We know that the Catholic Education Service don't like the idea. However, if they see that there is a demand for that type of school then perhaps they may soften their line on that in the future.

hamptonhillbilly, you're staggering about these threads like a bull in a china shop . You've posted the same comment at 21:39:28 that you posted at 19:48:23. I answered it at 20:24:26. (You also posted the same comment in the other thread and I directed you back here for the answer). Once is enough!

muminlondon - Gumley is a good example, takes people from far and wide based on a number of deaneries;

littlemissmuppet - but that is precisely why (many) Catholic schools are different from non Catholic schools - they do not have a narrow view of education in terms of GCSE A*-C; they are education the whole person based on Catholic values; they are about the formation of Catholics supporting what parents are doing at home and that is why Catholics send their children there. Catholic schools (the good ones atleast) don't have an instrumental view of education - ie that the purpose of it is simply to get a job as opposed to living a good live. And this is precisely why a Catholic school made up of non Catholics is a non sequiter.

"And this is precisely why a Catholic school made up of non Catholics is a non sequiter"
It wouldn't be 'made up of non Catholics'. If it had open admissions it would still generally attract Catholics and other Christians. Some non-Catholics would choose it. Many others wouldn't, but that is very different to being told they can't choose it. To me that is real "choice and diversity" because it gives all people an equal choice from a diverse range of schools, rahter than giving some people more choice than others.

Besides, many non-Catholics want to "live a good life" too. Most faiths and other philosophies have that in common (including Humanism).

I've posted this before, so apologies if you've seen it, but here is what Vince Cable has to say about St Catherine's in Twickenham (which is a Catholic private school, which does not restrict entry to Catholics).

Bayjay - if Catholic Church are against funding a Catholic Academy - same cost to them presumably as a Catholic VAT - then I guess it won't be a viable option. They probably have many demands on their investment funds and must invest in those with the greatest return in educaitonal terms to the Catholic community. Politics is the art of the possible so perhaps instead of asking why are all the possible options we should ask what are the options before us: one is a Cathoic VA, one is no new school. Is one a community school funded by the council or is that not politically possible.

Thanks for the Vince Cable speech which I had not seen. Interestingly he says the following : "As an MP, I have yet to encounter a non-believer who has a grievance because their child cannot attend a religious school. If people did have that grievance, I am sure that I would know about it."

Clearly he is wrong about this.

"Clearly he is wrong about this"
florist, yes, that is a very old speech (2002). The admission policies of VA schools were less restrictive then.

The Catholic Church would not be expected to put in so much money to a Catholic Academy. That could be viewed as a benefit to the church. I covered that in my post at Fri 04-Nov-11 11:28:16.

florist, in answer to:

"we should ask what are the options before us: one is a Cathoic VA, one is no new school. Is one a community school funded by the council or is that not politically possible."
I would say that other options need to be looked at. The council has so far only considered the VA option. It has not invited proposals from other providers (as is the normal practice when setting up a new school), or objectively analysed the demand for other school types. Those are the things that I am arguing for, as are many others. Whatever the motivations of some RISC supporters, the vast majority are simply local parents who want their voices to be heard. Thankfully the council have now reacted to that in an appropriate way, with the promise of a consultation. People will now be watching to make sure that consultation is conducted fairly and objectively.

Everyone should watch the inclusive school petition presented on 13Sep. www.richmond.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/64416. Jeremy clearly states " Our petition doesn?t rule out new faith schools in the borough, even Catholic ones. Some of the petitioners support state-funded faith schools, others don?t. But that?s a national policy issue. And everyone agrees we need good schools. Our petition is simply about one issue: inclusive admissions at new borough schools. And that need not preclude faith schools: half the Anglican primaries in the country have inclusive admissions. And the Church of England is moving towards more inclusivity in its other schools as well"
Unfortunately the Council is not bothering to respond to the petition ( despite having a legal obligation - another example of " not listening or respecting any opposite views"
I attended Catholic school and support the petition and also feel that 1) Catholic academy should be an option considered in consultation ( it will also be much cheaper for the church!) 2) Everyone should support local academies - if every religious/ belief group shuns them and gets exclusive schools, then academies will not be filled and fail.

gosh sorry Bayjay I didn't realise I was limited to commenting on just one of your threads - are you not also staggering about like a bull in a china shop then? why the different threads anyway?

BayJay - why do you only want inclusive schools in LBR from now on rather than retrospectively to re-designate all faith schools everywhere as non-faith inclusive community schools etc? I'm sure you've answered this somewhere in the threads you're running but can't find it?

Good morning hamptonhillbilly. I started both threads back in February. I was new to Mumsnet then and wasn't sure where the audience was, so I started one thread in the Secondary School Forum, and the other one here in Mumsnet Local. They have both been active at various times, but this one has been the most active.

I don't mind which one you post to (though it is easier for me, as facilitator, if only one is active at a time). My main point is that there is no need to post the same thing to both because most people who have been following the conversation for a while (and there are lots) have both threads in their 'Watching' list and follow the conversation in each.

You also don't need to post the same opinion twice in the same thread. Think of it as a conversation or debate between a bunch of people in a room. If you walk into the room, loudly express an opinion, walk out again, then walk in and say exactly the same thing again without having listened to other's responses, or followed the conversation inbetween, then it would seem a bit odd, wouldn't it? It certainly wouldn't do your argument any favours. (Its very different to somewhere like the Richmond and Twickenham Times website where people post comments on articles, and there isn't necessarily a conversation thread).