New Secondary schools for Richmond!

[BayJay]

Richmond Council recently published a White Paper outlining plans for Secondary education in the borough (cabnet.richmond.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=23719). They want new 6th forms in every school, and would need to decrease current Yr7 intakes to accomodate that. To offset those decreases they are talking about creating two new secondary schools. One of those new schools would be a Roman Catholic school.

The Roman Catholic community in the borough are currently disadvantaged by the "link" system (www.st-marys.richmond.sch.uk/Newsletter%20Link%20letter%20for%202011%20links%20(2).pdf). Because the Catholic primaries are not linked to any secondaries in the borough, their children tend to go to a combination of out-of-borough Catholic secondaries (which are mostly rated as Outstanding), grammar schools and private schools, though some of the girls do go to Waldegrave, which is not part of the link system. Note that there is no reason, in principle, why the Catholic Secondaries couldn't be linked to local community schools, but because many of their children have other options, they simply don't meet the "25% rule" required to form a link. (See an example set of transfer figures at www.st-james.richmond.sch.uk/Admin/Uploads/Docs/StJamesSchool_Parents_NewsLetter_270910.pdf).

This raises several questions in my mind:

1. Does the problem necessarily need to be solved by providing a Catholic Secondary, or are there alternative solutions that would benefit the community as a whole (e.g. reforming the link system)?
2. Does the majority of the Catholic community specifically want to be educated separately from the rest of us, or is it the case that, like everyone else, they simply want an outstanding education for their children, and find that the Catholic route is often the best way of achieving that?
3. If Catholics had more options for transferring to outstanding community schools locally (as many already do, to Waldegrave), would they choose those options over travelling to a single-faith school in a neighbouring borough?
4. I accept that there will always be very religious people who want to segregate themselves, but would I be right in asserting that there are also large numbers of Catholics who would be happy to attend community schools, provided that gave them the same level of academic excellence that can be found in many Catholic options?
5. If a new Catholic secondary school is created, it is likely to have an entrance policy that requires a priest's reference (as per the majority of existing Catholic schools). How do people feel about that?
6. If a state-funded Catholic School is created in the borough, would non-Catholic parents also like the option of sending their children there, provided they weren't barred by the admission system?

I'd be interested to hear your opinions!

QuintessentialShadow - Would you not like to see your neighbourhood kids (from all faiths and local primaries- community, CoE and Catholic) walk to RPA and become a part of its turnaround/ success story?

BayJay - we should all talk to and consult the hardworking minorities who have unequal opportunities. Despite all their hard efforts, £100,000 per chid private schooling will be a bridge too far for a lot of them. Do we want to create more barriers in our education system for them ???

Hypothetically, yes BayJay. But I think a lot more needs to change at management level at the RPA. As many other community schools, funds need to be made available to improve the education offered.

To turn it around, I would not send my children to a failing, or just "satisfactory" school, even if it had a Faith aspect.

If you were to suggest the same for Orelans Park, and I lived near that school, there would not be a doubt in my mind that I would like to send my children there.
If Christs were to change their admissions criteria, I would not hesitate to send my children there.

My oldest son has just returned to an rc primary, after a few years at an inclusive community school. (There were no faith schools were we lived)
I am just very happy to be back in a school with a good ethos and were there are strict guidelines as to what behaviours are unacceptable.

Lets not beat around the bush. Most parents want a good education for their children. Ideally all schools should provide a good education, if not oustanding. But I would prefer the school to also have a faith element. In my experience it makes school a happier and more structured place, with clear guidelines, and much less bullying.

Jeev - I get the impression you're misinterpreting me. I think we're on the same side here.

QuintessentialShadow - thanks for that. In my view your position is perfectly reasonable.

QuintessentialShadow - thanks a lot for the insights. Your last para raises a question - why should faith schools not be for the benefit of the entire community and follow an inclusive policy? COE schools are doing that

Implicit in the thread seems to be the following: we want a Catholic school because of its ethos, standards etc (though not so keen of the religion still less Catholic formation) but just not too many Catholics in the school because we want our kids to go their alongside the Catholic children.

Is that an unfair summary

florist, in my book that would be an unfair summary.

I'm happy for there to be publicly funded Catholic schools, so long as anyone can choose them (provided they sign up to respecting the ethos). That would put Catholics schools on the same footing as Church of England schools. It is not about stopping Catholics going there. It is about not putting up barriers for others to go there.

florist - I don't think that's an accurate analysis of this thread. I suspect that most non-Catholics would actually prefer the new school not to be Catholic, but they're willing to accept one in the interests of diversity of choice, provided its admission policies are open.

Quintessential - I can only sympathise with what you've just said.

Bayjay

That is not going to happen in Richmond or in the UK unless either the law changes forcing Catholic schools to take non catholics even if they are oversubscribed with Catholic applicants (and you will remember Alan Johnson got badly burned when he proposed this around 2006 - he lost) or if the Catholic church volunatarily changes its position. Personally, I don,t think it is unreasonable for Catholic schools to take 30% non catholics nationally but insist that if there is demand from Catholics they should get priority given the resources the church are putting into these schools.

The idea of a joint CofE and Catholic academy is good on paper but the experience in practice hasn,t been great.

Have you personally thought of Catholic schools out of borough which may not be over subscribed?

florist - I have lot of respect for Catholic schools but make no mistake they do not have a monopoly over excellence. E.g even in Richmond primaries , excellence is across all schools, and 2 of our secondaries that are outstanding are community schools.
I respect the strong feelings and demand from both the Catholic and Inclusive school supporters. It is the VA status that is the bone of contention. Hence why not consult and evaluate on the option for having a Catholic Inclusive school / Catholic Academy?

littlemissmuppet ; how open is an open admissions policy. 10% of places open, 25%,50% or all open on equal basis to non catholics.

Would you also accept the right of the church in law to ensure that the position of headteacher was reserved for a catholic.?

Jeev - i do agree with you and have indicated so on this thread. A good Catholic school is not measured in terms of GCSE a*-c grades but about how effective cahtolic formation is though I do think some of the posters on this thread believe the opposite - that catholic schools will willy nilly equal good grades. As Cardinal Hume used to say you can.t have the fruits if you don.t have the roots - that is if the less the school lives its catholic mission the less likely, other things being equal, will the grades be good.

As for the VA bone of contention '- the issue is not to convince me but rather what is the case why the Catholic church should dedicate many millions to a school in Richmond with perhaps a minority of Catholics versus other options it has not least to rebuild some of the crumbling Catholic schoolss who lost out when BSF was scrapped by the Tories.

"That is not going to happen in Richmond or in the UK unless either the law changes"
florist, I agree that for the existing schools the law will need to change for that to hapen. I'm not making a case for changing existing schools (though Jeev might have been going down that path in his/her last post). However, there is a perfectly accessible route for doing it with new schools. They are called Faith Academies. While I would prefer a community school on the Clifden site, I would be happy with a Faith Academy. I think it would be a good compromise and would consider sending my own children there.

"Personally, I don't think it is unreasonable for Catholic schools to take 30% non catholics nationally"
That would be good if those places were set aside as "open" as they are in many CofE schools, rather than just being leftovers after Catholics have been given priority. Nobody wants to feel like a second class citizen in their own school.

"but insist that if there is demand from Catholics they should get priority given the resources the church are putting into these schools."
That is where I disagree. I don't think the finances of existing VA schools justify their admissions policies. However, as I've said, I'm not really wanting to focus on existing VA schools. My focus is on this new school. If it is an Academy the funding model is completely different to VA schools and the Catholic church would not be expected to put in so much money.

Personally, I'd like to see all faith schools work towards 100% open places. Equally, I don't see why a headteacher should have to be Catholic. Much the same as the manager of the England football team doesn't have to be English.

Normally, this wouldn't matter as the majority of non-Catholics aren't likely to want to send their children to a Catholic school. Equally I can't imagine there are many potential non-Catholic headteachers who would be especially drawn to a Catholic school.

florist I believe that the government preference (including the proposed new Education bill) is for faith schools to have inclusive admissions. This is also in the Coalition agreement. A Catholic academy could have upto 50% places reserved for Catholics and the rest open. Ofcourse no one knows what the actual uptake could end up - but then it is about the principle of a) creating the choice in education and b) allowing people to make that choice and not restricting them
On costs if its a Catholic academy, our Diocese would be a co-sponsor but would have to pay significantly less than what it would have to for a Catholic VA school.
But its not all about numbers and finances - we know that there are strong supporters on both sides and need to consider the qualitative aspects of keeping the community together

"though I do think some of the posters on this thread believe the opposite "
florist, some people (and presumably you are in this category) choose Catholic schools for the Catholicity, and others choose them for other reasons (e.g. good grades, good facilities, welcoming atmosphere, close to their home, friends are going there etc). In my view, all of those reasons for choosing a publicly funded school are equally valid.

Bayjay

I agree if the Catholic church wants to spend millions on a Catholic academy open to all it clearly should be an option. But I fear, as I have been trying to say, this may not add up for the church in terms of justifying the spend involved.

The 30 per cent non catholic in catholic schools nationally I am sure don.t feel second class students anymore than a child getting into a grammar school on the waiting list would do.

On the resources point. The discretion the church has given its substantial financial and other commitment to education in this country is rather limited - it puts a lot more in to state education that some of the non faith VA schools of which there are many in and around london.

Clearly we are not going to agree but I do think if you were leading RISC it might be more likely to achieve its objectives.

Perhaps backtracking sightly from what I've just said - I'd currently be happy with a limit of 50% of places reserved for Catholics. If such schools could make a success of themselves, hopefully it would alleviate much of what I believe to be an unfounded fear that the presence of non-Catholics would destroy the ethos of a Catholic school.

Jeev
" Your last para raises a question - why should faith schools not be for the benefit of the entire community and follow an inclusive policy? COE schools are doing that"

My view on primary schools are the same as for secondary schools, I am quite happy for an inclusive Catholic school, provided the school keeps it Catholic ethos, and that all the parents are keen to support the school, PTA and school life.

I would however think that a parent who is not themselves Catholic and still keen for their children to attend a Catholic school had thought it through and would support the school.

Bayjay - the money the church spends on education in UK is partly collected from parents at catholic schools but mostly raised from parish collections and investments etc. That investment is not justified in terms of getting kids good grades or even creating a moral framework as missmuppet believes - many non faith schools create a moral framework for their youngpeople: right v wrong, equality, fairness, respect etc. What Catholic schools are trying to do is different from a general sense of right and wrong: it is about Catholic beliefs. Some schools do that better than others but my point is that there are many good, moral community schools but perhaps not as many in Richmond as parents would want for their children.

"Bayjay - the money the church spends on education in UK is partly collected from parents at catholic schools but mostly raised from parish collections and investments etc"

florist, I'm sorry, I don't agree with that. If you look at the other thread from about Wed 05-Oct-11 22:17:42 I make the case that the flow of money is actually the other way round (i.e. the parental contributions at the schools are supporting the churches)

Florist, the point I am trying to make is that I believe that if schools in Richmond in general were better, people would not want to ensure they get their non-Catholic children into a Catholic school, on the assumption that the school will be good. There is no question about it, standards should be raised, all children should receive a good education. I am quite sure there are very many good community schools that provide their children with an excellent education, and a good moral standing, but perhaps not so many in Richmond. Equally, they would not feel the need to oppose it, if they knew their own children were adequately provided with a good education.

When I am saying I want standards to be raised in general, it is not because I dont want an inclusive Catholic school, but because I believe in choice. Every parent should have a choice in where they send their children, they should not feel that need a Catholic school for their non catholic child in order to get a good education, or that they have to send their Catholic child to a jewish (for example) or a community school without Faith emphasis just because they want a good education for their child.

As a an aside, I think children are so impressionable, that it might prove a good investment for the future growth of the Catholic church, to be inclusive...

bayjay i haven.t done the maths but the opportunity costs of the land and building and teacher training that the Catholic church does on education plus the funds raised from the pews would suggest to me that the church is funding schools not the other way round.

Bayjay- jeeve - you say interestingly that a Catholic academy would be partly funded by a party other that the Catholic church. Who is this funder?

Unfortunately this whole issue will come down to the economics - who will fund a new school on the site. What conditions they attach (catholic VA school will want same controls as in every other part of country), free school may have other conditions. Who is this white knight with deep pockets on the horizon to partly fund a Catholic Academy - don.t say it is the CofE as they have been remarkably quiet to date

Qshadow - i agree. The issue here seems to be the poor provision from existing Richmond schools in the eyes of Richmond parents. Bayjay wants reasonable things for her children which she should expect to be provided by local community schools. This failure of the Council is the cause of the problem - the debate against a new Catholic school in Richmond the symptom.

What I can.t understand is why RISC supporters don.t do something positive - take Governing body positions in the undersubscribed community schools and give the Catholic school a run for its money.

"What I can.t understand is why RISC supporters don.t do something positive - take Governing body positions in the undersubscribed community"

florist, many RISC supporters are already doing that sort of thing. Signing a petition is not exactly a full time job. Facilitating this thread feels like a full time job sometimes, but its not. Believe me, I am already "doing something positive" and so are many others.