New Secondary schools for Richmond!

[BayJay]

Richmond Council recently published a White Paper outlining plans for Secondary education in the borough (cabnet.richmond.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=23719). They want new 6th forms in every school, and would need to decrease current Yr7 intakes to accomodate that. To offset those decreases they are talking about creating two new secondary schools. One of those new schools would be a Roman Catholic school.

The Roman Catholic community in the borough are currently disadvantaged by the "link" system (www.st-marys.richmond.sch.uk/Newsletter%20Link%20letter%20for%202011%20links%20(2).pdf). Because the Catholic primaries are not linked to any secondaries in the borough, their children tend to go to a combination of out-of-borough Catholic secondaries (which are mostly rated as Outstanding), grammar schools and private schools, though some of the girls do go to Waldegrave, which is not part of the link system. Note that there is no reason, in principle, why the Catholic Secondaries couldn't be linked to local community schools, but because many of their children have other options, they simply don't meet the "25% rule" required to form a link. (See an example set of transfer figures at www.st-james.richmond.sch.uk/Admin/Uploads/Docs/StJamesSchool_Parents_NewsLetter_270910.pdf).

This raises several questions in my mind:

1. Does the problem necessarily need to be solved by providing a Catholic Secondary, or are there alternative solutions that would benefit the community as a whole (e.g. reforming the link system)?
2. Does the majority of the Catholic community specifically want to be educated separately from the rest of us, or is it the case that, like everyone else, they simply want an outstanding education for their children, and find that the Catholic route is often the best way of achieving that?
3. If Catholics had more options for transferring to outstanding community schools locally (as many already do, to Waldegrave), would they choose those options over travelling to a single-faith school in a neighbouring borough?
4. I accept that there will always be very religious people who want to segregate themselves, but would I be right in asserting that there are also large numbers of Catholics who would be happy to attend community schools, provided that gave them the same level of academic excellence that can be found in many Catholic options?
5. If a new Catholic secondary school is created, it is likely to have an entrance policy that requires a priest's reference (as per the majority of existing Catholic schools). How do people feel about that?
6. If a state-funded Catholic School is created in the borough, would non-Catholic parents also like the option of sending their children there, provided they weren't barred by the admission system?

I'd be interested to hear your opinions!

florist, here goes ....

"If there is such demand for .... inclusive schools then why aren't the existing places full. ... Catholic admissions arrangements only seem to have become controversial as the failure of community schools became apparent with the publication of league tables etc"

1. There is a very understandable demand for good schools. The schools that are undersubscribed have a troubled past (though are improving). All sections of the community, including Catholics, are understandably nervous about their future. However, they need the support of all of us (including Catholics). To give one minoriy an opt-out on that is inviting controversy.
2. The phrase "inclusive" schools does not directly transalate to "community" schools as implied by your question. There are many people who would like to send their children to schools that have a faith ethos, but cannot access them because they don't fulfill the admission criteria. Some people change their behaviour (e.g. start going to church or increase their attendance) in order to increase their school choices. However, many people think that the entrance policies of publicly funded schools should not be influencing people's lifestyles in that way. That topic has been covered in the other thread. If you would like to read it (and I recommend that you do) start at around Wed 21-Sep-11 15:36:22.

"Don't Catholics pay taxes etc"
Of course they do, and that gives them equal rights to everybody else. However, it does not give them the much greater right to their own new school that nobody else can access, especially in difficult economic times.

"if Lib and Tories have said for years Richmond should have a Catholic school then surely it should be an option and not ruled out on the spurious grounds of inclusivity"
There has been demand for a Catholic school for many years. Both administrations have supported it in principle at various times. However, there has been no site available for a school until now, so the issue has not previously been debated at a high profile level, and the wider public have generally been unaware of the prospect. As you're probably aware, the Lib Dems do not think this is the right time or location for such a school.

"Catholic schools tend to be as inclusive as community schools in terms of ethnic mix"

1. It is not just ethnic mix that is important for inclusivity. It is also religious mix. Catholic VA schools prioritise entry for families who are practising Catholics, so the children tend not to learn alongside children with other religious viewpoints. In contrast CofE VA schools reserve a proportion of places that are open to the community (and are in many cases 100% open),
2. Social mix is also important. Nationally Catholic schools have a similar social mix to other schools, but not in LBRuT. Our local Catholic schools have much lower statistics for Free School Meals (FSM) and Special Educational Needs (SEN) than other schools. I can find those figures for you if you want them.

"As for Accord just have a look at their supporters on their national website and you will see a number of high profile names whose own children spent some time in private schools"
The page you are referring to is here, where they list a number of prominent supporters. However, they have many other "ordinary" supporters (including me) who have registered via their website here. Plus they are a coalition of national groups, listed here. The organisation is much larger than you suggest, and has a high profile nationally and politically. The fact that some of their supporters may use the private sector is not relevant to the debate. Those people have as much right to an opinion as anybody else. If you doubt an individual's motives then I suggest you contact them directly rather than throwing stones at them here where they can't defend themselves.

" are you sure the RISC is not just against a Catholic school"
Yes, I am sure that as a group RISC are not anti-Catholic. Many people (including me) would not be supporting them if that was the case. The accusation has been made in this thread before (by Mir4 and others), so please do go and read the earlier debate.

florist, I just wanted to add another point in response to this question:

"if Lib and Tories have said for years Richmond should have a Catholic school then surely it should be an option and not ruled out on the spurious grounds of inclusivity"
I personally have no problem with a Catholic VA school being an "option". What I don't like is that it is being put forward as the only option. The council has done nothing to assess the demand for other school types, and the negative reaction to their proposals has come as a very big surprise to them. The normal process for creating a new school is to hold an open competition, inviting bids from a variety of providers. However, the council have encouraged the Diocese of Westminster to apply to Michael Gove for the special permission needed to propose a VA school without competition. People have understandably objected to that. That is why the council voted on Tuesday to hod a borough-wide consultation. We do not yet know what will be in the consultation, or whether a selection of school options will be presented. We are all watching with interest.

Bayjay thank you for your comments - I didn't say RISC were anti-Catholic but rather anti Catholic school and perhaps faith schools per se.

Seems to me there are two issues: First: what options should there be as part of the consultation: Catholic VA school, Catholic Academy, Community School, Non Catholic Academy or perhaps free school (a RISC school perhaps why not give it a go.
Second issue, is which school can provide an offer to the parents of the borough which is not currently available in the most reasonable period of time with least cost to the taxpayer -

if these were the criteria (what else would you suggest) the Catholic VA option would stand a good chance unless the RISC free school on the site was up and running - Bayjay how about that??

If you don't have some knowledge of Christian faith and language, then you're going to be in poor shape when it comes to understanding the history or the culture of Britain.
Even Richard Dawkins supports religious literacy. He admires the poetry of the King James Bible and he understands that its cadences are inextricably woven into English literature as a whole.

humanism is a vague term. Does it have a clearer definition than those who wish to exclude supernatural or spiritual elements from human understanding? Do humanists believe that kids educated in faith schools are unable to think critically or understand the world in a critical fashion?

Should philosophical debate be deployed at local level by the enthusiastic evolutionist/ atheist/ humanist to deny the Borough this Catholic secondary school ? Why don't humanist activists with spare time on their hands concentrate on tackling state funding of 'creatonism' if that is their angst, rather than depriving local residents of equal access to a Catholic secondary which has been promised by our elected representatives and is much in demand?

florist, the site is too large for a Free School (although perhaps two Free Schools could join forces to use it together). The other options should be looked into, and proposals invited. A joint Catholic-CofE Academy could be another option, like this one. That could be popular with many of the parents at Archeacon Cambridge's, St Mary's and St James', and free up spaces at Orleans and Waldegrave, as well as some of the out-of-borough Catholic schools. If it had open admissions, then many of the parents at Trafalgar/Stanley/Chase Bridge who would be interested in a faith-based education for their children at Secondary level may think of applying too. They should certainly have that choice.

All of the options should be looked at and considered seriously.

hamptonhillbilly, most opponents of the Catholic school option - including me - think education about faith and religion is vitally important. I want my dc to learn about religion. I want them to be equipped to make up their own minds about faith. Their heritage is Jewish and Christian, and I want them to learn about both (including, for example, taking them to church).

Ideally, I want them to be learning about religion in school alongside children of other faiths, so they can learn from each other as well as from the teacher.

I'm bemused at talk of Catholics demanding 'equal access' to a Catholic secondary. At the moment, Catholics get equal access to the borough's schools. Surely, you are talking about additional and privileged access to a school that would be closed to my children? Most other faiths don't have religious schools matching their requirements in the borough. For example, if I wanted my children to go to Jewish schools I would need to move house.

hamptonhillbilly, hello and welcome. This isn't a debate about Humanism, and if people want to find out about they can visit the BHA Website. The Richmond Inclusive School Campaign, which I support but don't speak for, is not a Humanist campaign. It is made up of people from all backgrounds, and has many supporters who are religious (including Catholics). The one thing that they all agree on is that they want future borough schools to have inclusive admissions. That would not prevent a Catholic faith school, it would simply prevent the sort of admission system that requires people to prove how often they go to church in order to qualify. Please read the whole of this thread, and the other one, as it will give you a good background on all of the issues.

Also, it is worth pointing out that Community schools do RE too.

equal access refers to the issue of equal access to a Catholic secondary School in a childs own Borough - almost every other London Borough bar I think ours and one other has Catholic Secondary provision - we don't hence equal access.

BayJay - I'd say this is a Humanist raised debate. The petition created by a Mr Roddel who runs the sw london humanist group is about little else but the opposition to a Catholic School in Richmond Borough. This represents a local action towards a humanist goal - removal of state funding for faith Schools. That there are non- Humanist backers is because it is veiled by risc rather than openly Humanist V Catholic which is clearly what it is. i.e. People signing your petition can easily miss this intent and agenda as the wording sounds great to a lot of people who want a good education for their kids in the Borough and would be justified if your petition were not so narrow....unless you realise the other pertinent points that have been wearily repeated - equal access - i.e. like virtually every other London Borough to a Catholic Secondary School, Demand - the un-met current demand for Catholic Secondary School places imposes more strain on community schools as those places go to Catholic children as they don't have a Secondary School. Enironment - those that do have to travel far and wide.etc etc

hamptonhillbilly, your points have been raised before (by Mir4 and others) and have been robustly dealt with. Please read the whole thread so that I don't have to repeat all of that.

Just to clarify, I do not represnt RISC, and it is not "my" petition. If you would like to understand my motivations, see my post of Wed 12-Oct-11 15:58:45.

BayJay, you are the voice of calm patience.

hamptonhillbilly, your disrespectful tone does your cause no favours. Nobody on this thread has been rude to you.

For info, the Richmond and Twickenham Times has now corrected its story about the proposed Catholic School Consultation. They wrongly said in Friday's edition that no consultation would take place.

The way I understand it, there is not a shortage of community places in Richmond. Those who want a community (non-faith) education has provisions. Those who want CofE education, have their educational needs met, so why the opposition to the Catholic school? Would the opposition have anything against a Muslim school, or Jewish school too? Or indeed another CofE secondary? Or are they just picking on a minority group?

If there are enough community places in the borough, why be bothered about adding a Catholic school to the mix and diversity of the Borough?

Is it because it is exclusive? Well, most school have criteria to their admissions policies, be it Girls only, CofE priority, link attachment, catchment area, etc.

Is it because most Catholic school are regarded good? And people want a good education for their children? Isn't this then a rather different issue?

If the standard of education in general was better in the borough, would people even bother with whether a Catholic school was built?

Is the campaign rather misplaced? Should one not focus the attention on campaigning for a better secondary education across the borough rather than going against this one little school? Let the Catholics have their faith schools, and their educational needs met. One does not have to rule out the other!

QuintessentialShadow, hello. Please do take the time to read the whole thread, and the other one, as many of the points that you raise have come up before.

With regards to the points you make about the provision of different types of school, the number of places available, and whether people are simply seeking "good" schools (of course they are!) please see my post of Mon 07-Nov-11 06:52:28 .

"Would the opposition have anything against a Muslim school, or Jewish school too?"
See my post of Tue 01-Nov-11 23:29:06.

Is it because it is exclusive? Well, most school have criteria to their admissions policies, be it Girls only, CofE priority, link attachment, catchment area, etc.
Yes, that is why the subject is so emotive, and why people want to have their opinion heard when new schools are set up. Many of the people supporting the RISC petition have felt excluded by the entrance policies of existing schools, and want to see their views taken into account in the creation of new ones.

"Should one not focus the attention on campaigning for a better secondary education"
Your points are similar to those made by goodnessme (Tue 11-Oct-11 11:06:55), so I suggest you read that part of the thread.

Kerrist, BayJay, this is a thread on a forum, not a text book!

I am giving my opinion, I am not consulting the thread to find out The Answers!

QuintessentialShadow, its an ongoing conversation that a large number of people have been following for some time.

I get it, new opinions, or people joining are not welcome.

QuintessentialShadow, you are very welcome to join in, and new opinions are certainly welcome. However, its a courtesy in discussion threads to catch up on the discussion first before jumping in with your opinion. (In contrast to a "comment" site where that is the norm).

Well, I obviously did not read far enough down. I had followed the thread earlier, went to the council meeting, have spoken to Cll Lord True, so am not totally blind to the issues.

QuintessentialShadow you seem to have hit a raw nerve.
There are only two public policy issues in question at this difficult economic time and in light of relatively poor educational offer apparently from some existing Richmond schools,. One is finance: which of the available options is best for the local/national taxpayer. Two, who can provide a school that people (and I include catholics as people in this in case of doubt) want to go to.
On the former, if the Church is putting up a sizeable sum (figure not clear but many millions mentioned) which of the alternatives can provide that sort of sum. Second, the Catholic church can provide good quality education - what is their offer here (some Catholic schools of course are not too good).
The humanist agenda or even the anti-Catholic school agenda does not resonant with me or perhaps others. I say let the facts speak from themselves and those behind the shadows of RISC come out and make the case you want to make more transparently.

QuintessentialShadow, please don't feel unwelcome. Its just that people don't want to hear the same arguments played out over and over again. Please do take the time to read the bits of the conversation that you missed, and then dive in with any new thoughts.

I'm lost! what do risc want? a new Catholic school with less public finance impact which will free up more inclusive school places, or no school at all, therefore no more inclusive school places? This is the worst case scenario given current economic gloom but I can't see where the extra funding for a Richard Dawkins academy is coming from?

All taxpayers contribute to the cost of the nation's schools; Catholic taxpayers no less than any other taxpayer. The suggestion, therefore, that Catholic schools are being unfairly funded by taxpayers is entirely fallacious. The Catholic community actually pays more for its schools as 10% of the capital expenditure has to be provided from the Catholic community, whereas it is provided by the Government for other maintained schools i.e. they receive 100% funding. In addition to their taxes, the Catholic community provides in excess of a further £20 million per annum to its schools for capital expenditure. It should be remembered that 30% of pupils in Catholic schools are not Catholic and this is therefore a contribution that could be viewed as to the good of society. It also saves Government and arguably other taxpayers money, which they would have to find, were pupils in Catholic voluntary-aided schools to be educated in community schools.

Florist, in answer to your points:

"which of the available options is best for the local/national taxpayer"
The VA option will certainly be most cost efficient to the taxpayer in the short term, as the diocese will have to pay 10% of the costs of converting the site into a viable school. However, in return for that contribution they will get full control over the admissions system for 125 years. That means they can say no to any future expansions, or provision of any community places. Many parents at community schools like Stanley, which have expanded hugely in recent years, and put up with bulge classes in portacabins, resent the fact that the VA schools often resist the same sorts of pressures (though even they have had to help out with the most recent crisis at primary level).

the Catholic church can provide good quality education
I agree, and that is one reason why other people would like to go to them too. A Catholic Academy would allow other people access to that good education.

Well, going by RISCs Aims Statement on their website, they just want a Community school without a Faith aspect.
There are plenty of those already.

I thought according to the councils own projections there are not going to be enough and not enough in the right places.

"I can't see where the extra funding for a Richard Dawkins academy is coming from?"

every now and again on this thread my eyes start bleeding and I have to step away for a while... Bayjay I salute you.