New Secondary schools for Richmond!

[BayJay]

Richmond Council recently published a White Paper outlining plans for Secondary education in the borough (cabnet.richmond.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=23719). They want new 6th forms in every school, and would need to decrease current Yr7 intakes to accomodate that. To offset those decreases they are talking about creating two new secondary schools. One of those new schools would be a Roman Catholic school.

The Roman Catholic community in the borough are currently disadvantaged by the "link" system (www.st-marys.richmond.sch.uk/Newsletter%20Link%20letter%20for%202011%20links%20(2).pdf). Because the Catholic primaries are not linked to any secondaries in the borough, their children tend to go to a combination of out-of-borough Catholic secondaries (which are mostly rated as Outstanding), grammar schools and private schools, though some of the girls do go to Waldegrave, which is not part of the link system. Note that there is no reason, in principle, why the Catholic Secondaries couldn't be linked to local community schools, but because many of their children have other options, they simply don't meet the "25% rule" required to form a link. (See an example set of transfer figures at www.st-james.richmond.sch.uk/Admin/Uploads/Docs/StJamesSchool_Parents_NewsLetter_270910.pdf).

This raises several questions in my mind:

1. Does the problem necessarily need to be solved by providing a Catholic Secondary, or are there alternative solutions that would benefit the community as a whole (e.g. reforming the link system)?
2. Does the majority of the Catholic community specifically want to be educated separately from the rest of us, or is it the case that, like everyone else, they simply want an outstanding education for their children, and find that the Catholic route is often the best way of achieving that?
3. If Catholics had more options for transferring to outstanding community schools locally (as many already do, to Waldegrave), would they choose those options over travelling to a single-faith school in a neighbouring borough?
4. I accept that there will always be very religious people who want to segregate themselves, but would I be right in asserting that there are also large numbers of Catholics who would be happy to attend community schools, provided that gave them the same level of academic excellence that can be found in many Catholic options?
5. If a new Catholic secondary school is created, it is likely to have an entrance policy that requires a priest's reference (as per the majority of existing Catholic schools). How do people feel about that?
6. If a state-funded Catholic School is created in the borough, would non-Catholic parents also like the option of sending their children there, provided they weren't barred by the admission system?

I'd be interested to hear your opinions!

Kewcumber, I respect your position, I really do, but I happen not to agree with it.
The Human Rights Act (Article 2) talks of the State respecting the rights of parents to ensure that education is in conformity with
their own religion. Richmond already does this with the primary education available within the borough, and I hope that this will now have the opportunity to follow through with secondary education too.

There is Catholic secondary provision. It's just that it happens to be a bit of a trek for some to get to. There is, however, no CofE provision for the vast majority of CofE children.

You really, honestly, think that many RUT Catholics would send their children to this school even if it got an abysmal OFSTED and below average results? Why on earth do you think St Edward the Confessor failed 15 years ago? It's only because you know that the new school will consist of all those lovely well brought up children from stable church-going families that you are willing to send your child to it.

I find the way you keep on banging on about how people should just use RPA out of touch, frankly. And it's such a pity that the council didn't take the opportunity to offer it (complete with existing pupils) to the Catholic church a couple of years ago instead of making it an Academy. I'm sure it would have been massively oversubscribed by now if they had done.

RPA will not provide my child with a Catholic education, and as a practising Catholic it is my duty to provide a Catholic education for my child. For other non practising Christians/atheists etc, then why would Catholics not filling up these school places be offensive?

Is that directed towards me LittleMrsMuppet
Who is banging on about RPA?

Seenbutnotheard - you are right that the Human Rights Act talks of State respecting the rights of parents. However no piece of domestic or international law, including the European Convention on Human Rights, places an obligation on the state to provide or fund a particular type of school that parents might want. No group has a ?right? to state-funded schools intended exclusively for children of its adherents at both primary and secondary level.

BayJay Mon 31-Oct-11 20:01:01: you are correct; here is the whole section:

?Will faith academies be open to pupils from all religions and none?

?All academies? admissions arrangements are required, through their funding agreements, to be compliant with the School Admissions Code and admissions law. As with maintained schools, this allows such schools to give priority to faith applicants but does not allow them to refuse ?non faith? applicants if they are under subscribed.

Entirely new academies, i.e. Free Schools that do not replace predecessor schools are required to go further. They will be required to admit 50 % of their pupils without reference to faith. This will ensure that such schools give priority to all local children.

Maintained faith schools that choose to convert to become an academy will retain their religious character and their faith based freedoms?

I will try to find out what changes the new Ed Bill will bring in when it becomes law.

Tonight's webcast from 7 pm.

No - not at you - it was to h2ohno.

It's offensive because you seem to totally dismiss the very genuine concerns people have about the quality of education that they have on offer. If RPA was Catholic and with the same troubled past, you wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. And you know it, even if you aren't prepared to admit it here.

It is not the fault of the Godless heathens that the quality of Secondary education in RUT is so patchy. There is a collective responsibility to address and resolve the problems. A select group putting themselves above the rest and hiding behind Canon Law in order to do so will do nothing to help this matter.

LittleMissMuppet - You make many assumptions. Actually if RPA was Catholic i would send my child there. If the Clifden site school is not up to your standards, then will that too be yet another undersubscribed school in the borough?

Atleast we all agree that we need a good high quality school at Clifden. As we all know quality is high in Richmond across all primaries ( Community, COE and Catholic). Two of our secondary schools that are Ofsted Outstanding are community schools. To serve the interests of everyone in the borough I support a good high quality inclusive school at Clifden. It could even be a Catholic academy with inclusive admissions.

The problem, as I see it with a Catholic Academy, is when is a Catholic School not a Catholic School?
Maybe when 50 % of pupils are not Catholic?
What about preparation for the Holy sacraments? RE lessons? God being at the centre of the schools life?
You only have to look at the many AIBU threads on here to see how many non-catholic parents object to their children having to engage in faith based education.

I am not saying that I have made my mind up and would totally discount an Academy, but I can't see at the moment how it would be a positive answer for any of the 'camps'.

Private Catholic schools seem to be able to balance the issue of having non-Catholics attending with no problem.

I'm confused as to what the relevance of preparation for the Holy Sacraments is. When I was a child, yes, we did them at school. Current policy, however, is for preparation to be done within the child's parish.

We are all concerned about education and communal harmony in Richmond. Solving this difficult problem, might require an open minded and creative approach to problem solving. Two new CofE Inclusive schools have been recently opened in London 1) Secondary: schools.london.anglican.org/119/north-ealing-church-of-england-academy-necea and 2) Primary: www.stlukesschool.org.uk/. This clearly shows that faith schools can successfully incorporate inclusive admissions.
Clearly it will require compromises and tolerance from both sides. By working together to come to a mutually beneficial solution, Richmond could exhibit a model solution that upholds the multi-cultural, diverse and tolerant nature of our society. This will only further enhance the desirabability of living in Richmond and foster unity.

Having read this thread fairly comprehensively many of the arguments against a Catholic Secondary seem to be premised on the belief that Catholic's want better quality eduaction rather than education based on a curriculum that incorporates the Catholic ethos! I'm not personally aware of anyone who 'chose' their faith based on the likely quality of their kids eduaction. Or indeed anyone who desires a lower quality of education. The quality of Catholic education generally is a consequence of various factors rather than sole motivation for applications to attend! We're in one of the only London Boroughs that doesn't offer a Catholic secondary, and the Archdiocese are offering to chip in nearly £ 8 million towards a Catholic secondary. Whereas RISC want the taxpayer, centrally and locally to fund an inclusive school even though 200 places are spare in the Boroughs community schools. The main objection to this undermining of the need for an 'inclusive school' seems to be 'ahh but they're not very good places'. In short RISC and many of the arguments against a Catholic Secondary seem to be ethically, rationally and financially unsound. The arguments for a Catholic secondary are based on Equality - one of the last Boroughs in London with no catholic secondary, Environmental - current travelling distances to Catholic secondary's in real terms rather than based on disingenious examples, Financial - less impact on the taxpayer given the Archdiocese pledge.

For info, [[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-15258429
this article about a Catholic Free School in Cornwall]] contains a quote from a governor saying that it will be "open to everyone".

There is no admission policy published yet. The school is converting/expanding from an independent Catholic school (which according to its prospectus did prioritise Catholics, but also had a proportion of non-Catholics).

molpeterloy, everyone wants high quality education, including Catholics. We all need to support the academies, including Catholics. Catholics are not a breed apart from everybody else, they are part of a wider community. If Catholics go to community schools then they can still learn about and practice their religion at church. However, if they want state funded Catholic schools then they have to accept that other people may want to go there too.

The RISC petition is about inclusive admissions. That campaign doesn't seek to rule out a Catholic school.

Except this campaign is, as a result of the campaigning of Humanists who, by their own admission state that...
"Ultimately, all faith schools should be absorbed back into the notionally secular schools sector, becoming inclusive community schools. We campaign against ?faith schools' "

If you don't agree with this, you need to be careful who you align yourself with.

seenbutnotheard, people who don't want their children to go to a faith school, or participate in RE, wouldn't list a Catholic Academy as one of their choices, so there would not be a problem with people complaining in the way you suggest. Those sorts of complaints arise in areas where there are so many faith schools, and so few community options, that people have no choice but to send their children there. In those cases there is a very good argument to start converting faith schools to community schools to cater for the demand.

An inclusive Catholic school would attract the same sort of people as are attracted to the many inclusive CofE schools. My own children go to a CofE primary that has 30% open places. There are children from many backgrounds, but nobody is withdrawn from RE. The children are encouraged to express their opinions and they all learn from each other.

BayJay, I would like my child to be educated in a School which incorporates the Catholic ethos into the curriculum - this is what RISC rejects. You say that my child can still 'learn about and practice their religion at church' but they can't have a Catholic ethos within their School curriculum (although they could if they lived in virtually every other Borough in London)? You don't seem to be arguing for a Catholic school that is inclusive but rather against any type of Catholic school which brings me back to the equality argument? i.e. Catholic Schools should either not exist or not recieve state funding? You seem to be saying RISC is not against Catholic Schools while at the same time arguing against the establishment of a Catholic School?

I thought there was already an interfaith Anglican/RC school in Richmond? Fed by St Elizabeth's? Has something changed?

seenbutnotheard, you don't state the source of your quote. The British Humanist Association do campaign against Faith Schools. However, they do a lot of other things too and not everyone who is a member of the BHA agrees on everything that they do. There are also many people who would consider themselves Humanists who are not members of the BHA.

Jeremy Rodell, who is leading the campaign, runs the South West London Humanist Group. He is also the Humanist Rep on the local Interfaith Forum. Many other supporters of RISC are not Humanists. They come from all backgrounds.

Boffin Mum, yes, something did change. The Catholic church pulled out of that school.

molpeterloy, I would prefer a Community School, but can see good pragmatic reasons for an inclusive Catholic school. By that I mean a Catholic school with an open admission policy so that anyone can go there, provided they accept the Catholic ethos of the school. The Church of England are creating such schools as a matter of national policy, and gradually opening up admissions in their existing schools. That is because they recognise that, as state funded schools, they have a responsibility to the wider community, not just to their own congregation.

I realise that not everyone who supports the RISC is Humanist, which is why I said that I feel people should be careful about who they align themselves with.

I got my quote from here - I have been told by two friends who are members that it is also the view of the South West London Humanist Group. They are open about the fact that they wish to see an end to all Faith Schools.