New Secondary schools for Richmond!

[BayJay]

Richmond Council recently published a White Paper outlining plans for Secondary education in the borough (cabnet.richmond.gov.uk/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=23719). They want new 6th forms in every school, and would need to decrease current Yr7 intakes to accomodate that. To offset those decreases they are talking about creating two new secondary schools. One of those new schools would be a Roman Catholic school.

The Roman Catholic community in the borough are currently disadvantaged by the "link" system (www.st-marys.richmond.sch.uk/Newsletter%20Link%20letter%20for%202011%20links%20(2).pdf). Because the Catholic primaries are not linked to any secondaries in the borough, their children tend to go to a combination of out-of-borough Catholic secondaries (which are mostly rated as Outstanding), grammar schools and private schools, though some of the girls do go to Waldegrave, which is not part of the link system. Note that there is no reason, in principle, why the Catholic Secondaries couldn't be linked to local community schools, but because many of their children have other options, they simply don't meet the "25% rule" required to form a link. (See an example set of transfer figures at www.st-james.richmond.sch.uk/Admin/Uploads/Docs/StJamesSchool_Parents_NewsLetter_270910.pdf).

This raises several questions in my mind:

1. Does the problem necessarily need to be solved by providing a Catholic Secondary, or are there alternative solutions that would benefit the community as a whole (e.g. reforming the link system)?
2. Does the majority of the Catholic community specifically want to be educated separately from the rest of us, or is it the case that, like everyone else, they simply want an outstanding education for their children, and find that the Catholic route is often the best way of achieving that?
3. If Catholics had more options for transferring to outstanding community schools locally (as many already do, to Waldegrave), would they choose those options over travelling to a single-faith school in a neighbouring borough?
4. I accept that there will always be very religious people who want to segregate themselves, but would I be right in asserting that there are also large numbers of Catholics who would be happy to attend community schools, provided that gave them the same level of academic excellence that can be found in many Catholic options?
5. If a new Catholic secondary school is created, it is likely to have an entrance policy that requires a priest's reference (as per the majority of existing Catholic schools). How do people feel about that?
6. If a state-funded Catholic School is created in the borough, would non-Catholic parents also like the option of sending their children there, provided they weren't barred by the admission system?

I'd be interested to hear your opinions!

BayJay 18:49: ? . . the rule that says that new Academies . . must have 50% open admissions . .? is not yet a rule: it is in the Education Bill 2010, now Report stage in the House of Lords; it will be debated on Nov 01 before going back to the Commons.

So there will be some delay yet before it becomes law and this bit of it comes into force, time enough to set up a VA school under the 2006 Act and its Regulations.

That's a reasonable point but as the Clifden site is further away than Gumley for Barnes and Sheen pupils they will find 'their' places taken by Hounslow children. Do you have a link for numbers of applications? Also, what is your view on the primary school application?

But as yet there is no evidence that the children currently going out of Borough are finding it any more difficult to get Catholic places. This is not the central argument of the Catholic campaign, and it certainly isn't one that the Diocese of Westminster has been considering in recent years.

If Twickenham Academy ever gets as good as Orleans, I can assure you that the shortage of places needed will go up dramatically. It will counterintuitively make the problem more acute.

I find it very patronising to read "They just don't like the places on offer". Et tu Brute. Dress it up as you please, but the main drive for Catholics being so desperate for this Catholic school is so that they can avoid the Academies themselves.

Obviously Catholics only want to avoid the academies, nothing to do with wanting a Catholic education for their children, as stated by Canon law.

Diocese of Southwark also represents the borough. I personally know of families who despite being practising Catholics, did not get a Catholic secondary for their sons. Others only got in after initial offers simply because Gumley took on a bulge year.

As for children in Barnes being rejected in place of Hounslow Catholics, that could be easily managed. At present most of the Catholic primaries give preference to people worshipping in certain parishes within the borough. That could also apply to secondary admissions.

As for the Catholic primary, sounds great. I have always heard that in Twickenham/St Margarets there is a shortage of Catholic school places. St James is massively oversubscribed by practising Catholics, so i believe this would be a positive move.

I appreciate this view is in the minority in this thread.

Perhaps I'm overly cynical, but I know enough Catholics to know that Canon Law is not foremost in the school choice decision for many. Hence why those fortunate enough to be able to afford to send their children private rarely seem to choose the Catholic options.

And I do know that on the Middlesex side of the Borough that St Paul's always has places for Catholic children. But I've already mentioned that, and out how easy it is to get to, haven't I?

It is not logical to have Catholic primary school provision in the borough without secondary provision. We must do everything to reduce the environmental impact of children travelling outside the borough to obtain a Catholic secondary education.

Chrissquire - hello. According to this website the 50% rule applying to new faith academies is already in place. I'm assuming it was part of the Academies Act 2010. Or am I missing something?

meadows1, if environmental impact is the key factor, then everyone should go to their nearest secondary school, regardless of its ethos. Setting up different schools for different faith groups is not common sense from an environmental perspective.

The Catholic primary schools exist for historical reasons. The Catholic secondary school that used to be in the borough was closed for historical reasons. History is not logical.

BayJay, I think here we are talking about 1 new Catholic secondary school in the borough rather than redesigning the whole national secondary school system. For the context that we are discussing, a Catholic secondary school would have an environment travel dividend.

Meadows1, for the reasons set out by LittleMrsMuppet [Mon 31-Oct-11 16:24:43] I would disagree about the environmental travel dividend.

If we were to redesign the entire national school system, then in my view it would be illogical to include faith schools at all, on the grounds that they would undermine community cohesion (I realise others may disagree). For that reason I don't accept the "logic" argument for a Catholic VA secondary school. In creating new schools we need to be pragmatic. I think there are pragmatic reasons for creating a Catholic secondary school with an inclusive admissions system, in line with the new schools that are being created by the Church of England.

meadows1, RUT is not the Isle of Wight. It's a long thin borough with many Catholic secondaries along its borders. I really don't get why the existence of a secondary "in borough" is even relevant to the argument.

According to the admissions criteria for Gumley House in Hounslow secondary schools admission brochure the Southwark diocese includes Richmond, Mortlake, Putney, Barnes, Kingston and Roehampton. So that's not the same as the borough boundaries. Gumley reserves 20% for the 'Upper Thames' deanery including Twickenham and 14% for the Southwark diocese. It is still much easier to get into Gumley as a Catholic girl in Barnes or St Margaret's than it is for a non-Catholic to get into Waldegrave.

So if there is a new VA RC school the admissions criteria might disappoint Richmond families if it allows other boroughs/deaneries/whatever you call them a proportion of the places. Or on the other hand the Hounslow schools might adjust their criteria thus reducing the number of places at Gumley/St Mark's available to Richmond parents. Interesting!

Reading this thread, I agree that if my nearest academy was of good quality, I would prefer to send my children there rather than to Clifden Road. 1st and foremost I want good high quality education for my children, secondly minimal commute time and finally if that is in a Catholic school - it would be great.

Thanks for that SHY6. Do you think that opinion is fairly typical in your community? Its certainly true of the Catholics that I know. I think there would be a lot of value in a proper study to find out the proportion of Catholics who really would be satisfied with a high quality local school. Unfortunately, the window of opportunity to conduct such a study has probably passed, as the heat of the current controversy would now skew the results.

According to LBRUT's Twitter feed the full council meeting will be webcast tonight from 7pm. However, there are no details here on the webcast page as yet.

I can categorically say that, for me and for every other family I know that are part of the campaign to support a Catholic secondary school, this is about my children continuing their education under the guidance of a Catholic education.
As I have said further up the thread - I live opposite an 'outstanding' non-demominational primary school but my children attend the Catholic Primary that is further away and 'good' rather than outstanding.

seenbutnotheard, the catholic paretns I know who go to our local catholic primary split into two groups - those who are happy for their childrne to attend the local well thought of secondary and wouldn;t under any circumstances attend a catholic secondary half way acrss teh borough and those who want a catholic secondary education who would choose the closest catholic school (which wouldn;t be the proposed site in twickenham). I don't know any of them would go to the proposed school. They are participating in the campaign because there is a three line whip by the head teacher.

None of them are preapred to say this pubically as their primary is hard to get into and siblings have been refused places in the past - no-one is going to take the risk of being the maverick.

As I have said before I do understand practising catholics wanting a secondary education to fit their spiritual needs but I don;t see why it should take precedance over my sons spiritual needs. There are no atheist secandary schools in Richmond borough and I'm prepared to bet there are more families who don;t practice any religion in the borough than catholics.

Do you understand that there is no enshrined right to a catjolic education in this country funded by public money?

Should also add, the green argument about travel earlier at least makes some sense compared to the previous argument that a catholic secondary will promote inclusivity!

Cat2405, thanks for that info about tonight's meeting. I noticed this in part 4 of the council's constitution:

20.4 Recorded vote
If 6 Members present at the meeting demand it, the names for and against the motion or amendment or abstaining from voting will be taken down in writing and entered into the minutes.

Lets hope they do that so we can examine the results afterwards and see which way our councillors voted.

The Council meeting can be watched live today on www.richmond.public-i.tv/core/portal/webcast_interactive/67540

Will include motion on consultation and questions from public on schools debate

Kewcumber - Very harsh comment to say over Ms B. These supposed parents would not send their children to a Catholic secondary in the borough? This must represent a tiny minority. Most of our local primary is very excited at the prospect of this school being created. Even though we have excellent secondaries nearby. It is about the Catholic education, not the ofsted reports.

Your son has local schools with vacancies. Richmond Park Academy has spaces for local children. Their is no need for more community places, the only current need for places is for Catholic places. We are the only primary schools which do not have secondary provision.

BayJay - View in our circle is that high quality education with global perspective is No 1 priority for our children. Population has crossed 7 bil and it is getting more integrated and interconnected.

Interestingly, I have spoken to a fair few parents who support the RISC but have said that they will fight tooth and nail to make sure that the Linked Schools protocol continues - this is because they are all but guaranteed a place in Orleans Park School - Nothing like wanting to have your cake and eat it is there?

h2ohno - I am afraid that I need to point out that academies need support from everyone including Catholics. When RPA was being formed all the local Catholic primaries promised to support it, but dissapontingly in 2011 it received no intake from them.
A lot of investment and efforts have been put into RPA and the other academies for the benefit for the entire community. They are doing a great job in getting better and if we are serious about helping them succeed, we need to support their drive to increasing the admissions. Hence it is not fair to suggest that surplus community school places are for non catholics to fill. This is seriously offensive to all of the non Catholics and violates the non discriminatory and all inclusive admissions policy of our academies. Having different standards for Catholics and others in the community creates division.
The imperative is to get everyone in the local community to support and embrace RPA to get the desired return on investment - which was made for the benefit of all. This will require a increase in intake from all local primaries (community, COE, Catholic) and even a modest contribution of 5-10 students from every local primary will fill up spaces in 2012 !