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Living overseas

Whether you're considering emigrating or an expat abroad, you'll find likeminds on this forum.

Living the dream - really????

156 replies

bebespain · 07/03/2010 10:47

Apologies in advance if this comes across as a self-indulgent moan (its been a long weekend at home alone with the 2 ds)

I´ve just been peeling vegetables looking out of the kitchen window at the bleak scene, remains of snow/slush on the ground, grey skies, bare trees etc and I remember what somebody told me a while ago when I was moaning discussing my life here that I was "living the dream"

Can somebody remind me of what "the dream" is?? I am in Spain btw some 40kms out of Madrid

It is a serious question, honestly but I really am struggling to find the answer.

Is anybody else living overseas told that you are "living the dream" or does it just depend on the country you are living in? I mean is the British idea of Spain still that of being by the sea/beach sitting drinking sangria all day, munching fish and chips etc

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Acinonyx · 12/03/2010 09:03

Very interesting thread. I lived overseas for most of 10 years - 2 African countries, one Middle East. I met dh, who is American, in Africa and now we live in a village in the UK with one dd in reception.

We made a decision to create this life for dd - very settled, semi-rural, no school changes. I felt it espeically necessary as she is an only child of older parents. I wanted her to have a place that would always be home.

The problem is that it is driving me nuts. Dh manages better as he travels a lot for work. I did some contract work in Africa before dd was born. I miss living overseas like crazy - but I am so much more anxious about living conditions and safety on her behalf than I ever was for myself.

I miss the heat and the dust and the everday 'otherness' of being in another culture. I would love to have gone on to Asia - so ArtciFox's posts make me totally We did nearly go to HK at one point but the jobs fell through due to the change over.

Now, with dh's job, there may be options but limited - NY, Delhi, Singapore, Tokyo, Mexico City/San Paolo, Cape Town. Dehli would be my personal dream but dd is just not a tropical child - can't stand strong light, heat, crowds, noise, spicey food...... (how can this be MY child??).

We have a lot of discussions about whether we are doing the right thing. Is it worth it? How would she really cope with changing schools say 2-3 times before scondary? Would the experience just be too different with a child to be worthwhile?

We have no family in the UK. It has taken a few years to build up the network we have now. It gets tougher to do that as you get older. It would be hard to do that all over again.

AuldAlliance · 12/03/2010 10:11

Thumbwitch, it's hard to explain succinctly. So I will have to be long-winded!!

The system was pretty good till the late 80s, when quotas were imposed for pass rates in the baccalauréat and when schools also began to struggle with new generations of less disciplined and motivated pupils. But it gave pupils from all horizons a very wide and in-depth education (not encouraging independent thought enough, admittedly). For a long time it was what the French call a 'social elevator', providing children from even the poorest backgrounds with the opportunity to do well and gain access to good jobs.

It is however a very unwieldy system, as all teachers are state employees. They pass a national competitive exam to become a teacher, and once recruited they do a year's training where they teach one or two classes and also have training in teacher training schools (which are really not great, far too abstract and theoretical, not enough concrete help in facing class). You don't teach where you want: everyone has a certain number of points based on experience, etc., and they ask to be posted in specific regions, but can end up being sent anywhere in the country, especially at the start of their career, until they accumulate points and can get into the region of their choice.

The system is obviously not ideal in certain ways, but Sarkozy has addressed other problems: he has decreed that half (yep, 50%) of all teachers who retire are not to be replaced. Over the last 3 years, the number of posts available has been slashed (by 16000 this year, for example). Schools are having trouble finding teachers to replace absent staff or those on maternity leave, so they are using uni students who have no teaching qualifications. This problem may in time become less catastrophic, as the gvmt is handily slashing the number of teaching hours in core subjects, and scrapping smaller-size groups for language lessons, etc., so fewer teachers will be needed.

The competitive exams are being reformed, to make them less academic. So an aspiring English teacher whose English is abysmal but who can answer a question about "how to act as a responsible and ethical civil servant" [sic] may well pass.

The year's combined teaching/training is being scrapped (pricy to pay teachers who don't teach full time), so those who have just passed their exam will be placed in front of up to 7 classes of different levels, and have to get on with it. They'll be 'accompanied' by an experienced teacher for 5-6wks in Sept/Oct, then will teach alone till Jan/Feb when they have some training (to be defined by the new teachers themselves!).
In Sept/Oct the 'accompanying' teacher's class will be 'taught' by a series of university students considering teaching as a career, with no experience or qualifications. In Jan/Feb the new teacher's class will be 'taught' by a series of similar students.

Parents will be fighting to take their kids out of the system once it becomes clear that some classes will miss up to 12 wks real teaching in the year. And in a few years time, I think the competitive exam itself will be scrapped, so teaching levels will drop dramatically.

But the solution is simple: the same gvmt which has halved the number of posts available in the state system because the coffers are empty has just doubled (and in some subjects quadrupled) the number of jobs available in private schools.

The whole public sector is being systematically and cynically dismantled.

Sorry that was so long.

ZZZenAgain · 12/03/2010 12:32

How can they do that? Sounds mad. Am to hear 50% of retired teachers are not going to be replaced, unless they have far more teachers currently employed than they actually need or are expecting a massive reduction in enrollment numbers. Honestly wondering what the grand idea behind it all is. Do they seriously hope to move education into the private sector and just have public schools for the residual pupils whose dp have no way at all of paying private school fees?

Sakura · 12/03/2010 13:17

I thought I was doing ok here in Japan, and I am generally (been here 5 years now), until I watched a British film last night and realised what I miss the most about Britain: THE ABILITY TO LAUGH AT ONESELF AND NOT TAKE ONESELF TOO SERIOUSLY.
I really really miss it. I want to have a laugh with my own people again.

AuldAlliance · 12/03/2010 13:37

ZZZen, I am not sure what the master plan is, TBH. If the reform of teacher recruitment is anything to go by, neither are those organising it. I work in a university and we still don't know what courses we need to put on for next year, as the Ministry of Education hasn't quite finalised its plans.
They keep issuing contradictory legislation, and from the beginning have been incapable of answering basic questions (In November the answer to "Will there be an oral in English in the new exam for future English teachers?" was still "The question is indeed one that we need to think about." This for an exam to be brought in as of next academic year. )

The 50% non-replacement thing doesn't only concern teachers, but all public sector workers. Hospitals, police, fire service... The justification is that these services are flabby and inefficient and cannot be afforded at their current levels. Universities are being given 'special' favours: only a third of those retiring will not be replaced, rather than half.

There is not a glut of teachers. Far from it.
For the last few years, education authorities have been sending desperate messages to universities in around September, asking them to post ads 'recruiting' students to teach in schools on short-term contracts. As long as there is someone in the classroom, as long as the schools where parents would protest are not concerned, all is well.
The exact nature of reforms to the recruitment of teachers are not known by the general public. A degree of uproar may begin when the new arrangements are put into practice and classes start being given to random students instead of teachers in lots of schools, I suppose.

I wasn't quite so cynical about the efforts to promote private against public, until the figures for the posts were released recently. I just do not see how you can claim that you are forced to cut posts because there's no cash (there's a global crisis), and then double the number for private schools.

frakkinaround · 12/03/2010 14:29

To compound the issue in France overseas qualified teachers aren't allowed to teach unsupervised in schools, even EU qualified teachers (which is oh-so-slightly contrary to EU legislation on the subject the way the French 'interpret' it is apparently perfectly legal). There are plenty of qualified teachers in shortage subjects or who are native speakers of foreign languages but they'd rather use uni students

claraquack · 12/03/2010 14:34

Acinonyx - that has kind of been very similar to our dilemna and in the end we decided one posting while the children were still young enough for it not to be disruptive for their schooling and then settle back home. That's the plan - we'll see whether it lasts. Like you, I lived, worked and travelled a LOT before I had dc's and know I will find it very hard to settle "for good" in the UK. It will almost seem like it's all downhill until I die! I am so used to moving on every few years and not knowing what the future holds, I'm terrified of my life being mapped out for me.

BUT. I also want my children to have the settled childhood I never had. I want them to come home to a town where they grew up and have friends they grew up with. And I really miss the support network we had at home - family just over an hour away and friends all around us.

Btw, my dd (4) is also not a tropical child at all - she hates the sea, tolerates the beach, can't stand loud noises or extreme heat, hates spicy food. She loves England and misses it all the time. Which sometimes does make me wonder - who are we doing this for?

bebespain · 12/03/2010 14:38

THE ABILITY TO LAUGH AT ONESELF AND NOT TAKE ONESELF TOO SERIOUSLY.
I really really miss it. I want to have a laugh with my own people again.
Yes sakura - me too!

"There are plenty of qualified teachers in shortage subjects or who are native speakers of foreign languages but they'd rather use uni students"

Isn´t that just totally bonkers

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Beachcomber · 12/03/2010 17:56

Agree that state of French school system is concerning and getting worse.

I often get asked by people to do some English teaching to help their struggling children. I don't do it often now, but when I do, I am sometimes by the crapness of the teachers which is staggeringly obvious when I go through the children's workbooks.

The system needs an overhaul, but not the one it is getting.

Francagoestohollywood · 12/03/2010 18:31

Auld, I see we are facing similar problems re education. I too was relieved to go back to Italy, to a school system which seemed easier to navigate.
But evil Mr B. is doing all he can to destroy our public school system, and invest more money in private schools that in state ones.
We have to provide our schools even with toilet rolls, wtf.

Francagoestohollywood · 12/03/2010 18:32

easier to navigate than the English one.

thumbwitch · 12/03/2010 18:49

Oh God, that sounds terrible! What on earth are they trying to do to society there, ensure that only the rich have education again? That is centuries out of date!! At least we don't seem to have those sort of problems here (yet?) - although I have heard from one of the mums in playgroup that all the public (i.e. state) schools in NSW were given a grant to build new classroom facilities, presumably to accommodate rising numbers.

Bebespain - the shopping here is mostly shite because the range of choice is pretty poor and often clothes etc. are too expensive. Baby/children's clothes are mostly more expensive than the UK and I do resent paying wads for something that DS will be out of in a few months (or less if he grows suddenly). I went round the shops yesterday and couldn't find a single item of clothing that I liked - I don't know if it's global fashion I hate or just what is in Oz, but it's all just wrong and the colours are all wrong too. Yuk. I did find a nice pair of sandals but they were too expensive for what they were - I'd have paid the price for leather, but they weren't leather.

And they just don't seem to have interesting shops - it's all so bland. It's probably better in Sydney though - more variety and interest there.

Francagoestohollywood · 12/03/2010 19:07

Well Thumbwitch, in case of Italy it's the govtm trying to please the Vatican (the majority of private schools are confessional) and yes, the will to destroy anything resembling a decent public service.

Sakura · 13/03/2010 00:37

thumbwitch, no I'd heard that about shops in Australia too. BUt at least clothes in Oz are designed for women who have breasts and hips!! In the UK I'm considered to be relatively flat-chested when I'm not breastfeeding but I'm busty here. The fasions are all wrong for my shape, they tend to wear baggy tops and T-shirts to hide the fact they have no curves, then theres these stick thin legs poking out the bottom of belt-length skirts. ONe good thing here is the kids clothes,because they've got "Kawai" culture so everything is cute, and the kids clothes are really really cute (but very harsh on the wallet). And don't get me started on the sexualization of images of of very very young looking girls...

Sakura · 13/03/2010 00:42

Contrary to what most people think shopping in general is much better in the UK than in Japan: they design and layout of the shops, the fact that UK town have a "town centre", not just department stores, range of choice, variability of prices.
I'd better stop posting now before I go on and on...
there are some good things here too

ArcticFox · 13/03/2010 08:05

Sakura- it's similar here. I am HUGE compared to Chinese women who are 97% of the female population (I'm 5'7'' and size 10/12). I'm limited to Zara and M&S and buying stuff online or when I go back to the UK. Shoes are almost impossible as I'm a UK7. Gym kit is completely impossible. Bras stop at a C cup (max).

However, I'm not that interested in clothes or shopping so it doesn't bother me that much. Shopaholics can go up to Shenzen and get really cheap tailoring and "genuine fake" accessories so they stay happyish!

Thank god for the internet- I am pregnant and managed to get a bump band to tide me over till I go back to the UK for a week and can get some mat clothes that fit!!

Acinonyx · 13/03/2010 10:36

Claraquack - ''It will almost seem like it's all downhill until I die! I am so used to moving on every few years and not knowing what the future holds, I'm terrified of my life being mapped out for me.''

This is just how I feel. We had another discussion last night about the pros and cons of going say to Singapore for 'a while'. Not somewhere I would ever ahve considered pre-dd but now seems like a good compromise with a lot of travel potential.

Maybe I just need to at least keep the possibility/fantasy alive to stay sane. The possibility of 'one more posting'....

I get a perverse thrill from limited shopping choices. Beurocracy can indeed be stupifying - probably expectations are understandably but misguidedly higher in european countries whereas in the developing world you have to accept these laberynthine yet inefectual processes as the norm.

giveitago · 15/03/2010 21:14

I'm not an expat now - I lived in spain which is my spiritual homeland whilst I was single.

But I met a guy and soon realised that living abroad as a single person is very different to living abroad possibly married to a national of that country.

MY dh is trying to get me and ds move back to his home country of Italy.

ou couldn't pay me quite honestly - I'm realistic - like the place as an individual but a middle aged female Brit living there - what kind of life would I have - erm zero. For the sake of my own sanity and to ensure my ds has plenty of everything his multiculural heritage (ie mine) has to offer we're staying put.

However, those wanting to go to africa but worried - DO IT - my dad was there and took my half sister from 4-11 years old - it was the making of her although adjusting to the UK was very very hard for her intially.

I'd love to leave the UK for asia however.

People moan about 'foreigners' in the UK desperately holding onto the culture of their homeland - I'm sure you guys would all understand their position.

frakkinaround · 17/03/2010 11:09

I think there's a big difference between the isolationism that sometimes happens and maintaining culture and cultural heritage. There are large communities in the UK who are integrated yet maintain their own culture. I know it's not quite the same but Jewish communities all over the world balance this very well. Then there are places where you actually feel like you walked round a corner into India or Somalia and THAT'S different. I can understand why people moan about that.

It's something I've always tried to avoid doing, although I'm a bad example as I don't really feel a massive attachment to Britain the country! I suppose I am very British in some respects, but they're more eccentricities than cultural protectionism/a refusal to integrate.

skihorse · 17/03/2010 11:24

I don't let my postcode dictate my happiness.

I always knew that "living the dream" would come from finding peace in my soul, having a happy and healthy relationship and just loving my day-to-day life.

I'm sure there is a hotel or two in the world which would keep me happy for a day or two - but most of us live in the real world and know that's all brochure bullshit.

Your happiness is your own responsibility.

bebespain · 17/03/2010 13:26

"I don't let my postcode dictate my happiness."
skihorse - You have totally summed everything up for me in just one sentence. In fact your whole post says it all! I only wish I had seen life like that some 4 years ago before I made the move...however... like somebody else said "onwards an upwards"

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InmaculadaConcepcion · 17/03/2010 15:39

What happened to the last week?!!

Sorry bebespain, I wasn't ignoring you - just haven't checked the thread for a few days.

Yes, I must admit, it is cool living reasonably centrally in Madrid - makes life easier in many respects when shops/friends/The Retiro etc. are within an easy walk/metro/bus-ride.

Yes, if you fancy coming into town, why don't we meet up? My DD is only 7.5 weeks at the moment, so very portable. In fact, we went for a family outing to the Retiro on Sunday, it was lovely (fantastic that the weather is finally warming up...was beginning to think it would never happen..!)

Me and DH keep a blog on the subject of our expat experiences in Spain and life in general - here if anyone's interested.

One thing that I find a little tiresome here on the baby front is how little there is for people with a more progressive (or, if you like, traditional!!) approach to babies and their products. The availability of things like wrap slings, washable nappies, sleeping hammocks and other vaguely earth mother items is pretty sparse. A single shop in Madrid (just round the corner from us, luckily!) that does some of those things. I would expect more in a vibrant, cosmopolitan capital city like Madrid, but no. Spaniards are enthusiastic about infants, but fairly conservative in their general approach.

As for Spanish (and especially Madrileno) driving, I think it's less about machismo and more about impatience - in common with French and Italian drivers (all that coffee they drink IMO!!) Same goes for parking. Why bother finding your own space if you can double park much more quickly?!

InmaculadaConcepcion · 18/03/2010 08:50

Mr IC here (really should get my own log in)

acinonyx I grew up in San'aa, Nairobi and Dar Es Salaam from 0 to 15, as did my sister. my Dad still works overseas now and then. we're both pretty well adjusted University Graduates in our twenties these days. my sister in particular attended several schools and had two stints of home schooling; this is no way stunted her academically or socially.

you wont damage your child, you'll give them an amazing childhood and probably give them greater understanding of the world than growing up in an English village. you may however leave them addicted to living overseas!!

ZZZenAgain · 18/03/2010 08:59

I don't think you can realistically expect to be happy everywhere and I don't buy that it is all up to your attitude thing. I grew up in several different countries due to the expat lifestyle of my parents and that was all fine. However I am not rooted anywhere and like most people I have spoken to who grew up similarly there is a kind of envy of the easily relationship to a place which people have if there childhood was less unsettled. Nowhere is home in an emotional sense for me.

Some countries will be easier for you to like and to feel at home or happy in than others. That's definitely the case, irrespective of your financial situation and relationship to your spouse. Money and a good partnership help enormously but not everyone will be happy in every place. I am happy where we are now and in most places I lived as an adult, I fell on my feet, but there were exceptions, placesx I have no intention of returning to live.

Spain may be the right place for one person for example and not for another. With hindsight I feel it is best to leave and move on before too much time elapses if a place really gets you down.

ZZZenAgain · 18/03/2010 09:01

oops : their childhood