France to UK after 13 years... would you take children's opinion into account?

[miimblemomble]

Hi all

We are a UK family, have been living in France for 13 years. A whole range of issues from ill, elderly, family back home, to Brexit, to Covid, to general fed-up-ness with French bureaucracy is making DH and I both seriously consider moving back to the UK. All our family are there. We used to not feel too far from them, but Covid has made travel all but impossible, and we are missing them a lot. It has brought home the reality of not living down the road (something we have never aspired to before!). DH's parents have both declined physically and we haven't been able to help at all. Brexit means that university in the UK is suddenly not an option for our kids and, unless we get nationality here, they / we can't even benefit from freedom of movement to live anywhere else in Europe. And we are looking at probably 5 more years to get French nationality as our prefecture is so unbelievably shit - despite having started the process back just after Brexit happened!

We've been here all our children's lives (DS1 was 5 months when we arrived, DS2 was born here). DS1 in particular (in 4eme now) has a wide circle of friends and a girlfriend here. He would be so upset if we decided to move now. And DS2, while he would be easier to uproot, he's very shy by nature and I worry about dumping him in the UK in P7 just before starting secondary (we'd be heading to Scotland).

Many of you have made big moves... If you were doing it with teens / ados (10 and 13 yrs) did you take their views into account? Did you ask them - or did you just tell them that it's happening, and they have to suck it up? We haven't moved once since having kids, despite DH and I being pretty mobile in the past. They've grown up with stories or travel and the reality of living far from family, but in their lives they've only experienced stability so far.

I moved countries at a similar age. I was not consulted. But that was a temporary move. I was fine, my brother was not. He was the shy one.

In this case the needs of you and your parents seem to be trumping the obviously benefits of staying to your children. I think it's less about asking them, more about considering them. That sounds blunt but post-Brexit, post-covid UK is going to be pretty shit for your kids.

I don't have teenagers, but I have a couple of thoughts. They're a bit blunt but bear with me.

1. Realistically, how long are the elderly family likely to last. It would be really unfortunate to move then them snuff it in 2 years. If they're frail, maybe one of you moving back would be a better option.
2. How academically high flying are the kids? If they're likely to be Oxbridge level, a Grande Ecole is nearly as good, or it would be worth paying the fees for Oxbridge, possibly with bursaries. If they're more average, how about looking at other universities in Europe. Places like the Netherlands or Germany have a lot of English courses and the fees, even for international are less than even British home fees. Is it really worth a huge upheaval and 9k a year for a place at a post-92 university (or even a lower rank Russell group). Who knows, they might even get their act together on a UK Erasmus program so they could do a year in the UK.

I'm in France and planning to leave because I don't see a future here so I totally get your frustration. I've lost a close relative to Covid and couldn't get back and suddenly the channel feels very wide. I know the kids are getting older, but it doesn't seem a good time to make a decision because everyone everywhere is depressed and miserable.

Blunt is fine! I need some straight talking from more neutral parties. DH and I are just wallowing / drowning in Covid / brexit / french bureaucracy misery atm and I’m aware we aren’t necessarily seeing the bigger picture.

@stodgystollen

Not likely to be Oxbridge, but def Russell group in Scotland was the vague aim. EU students have gone from being treated as «locals» to home fees or even international fees status at Scottish unis. Brit nationality doesn’t guarantee anything, the unis themselves are allowed to set the rules and they are very based on residence, not nationality. But yes, there are likely to be other options in the EU - getting nationality would help with that but it’s a pit of fucking despair, french bureaucracy !!

@MrsTerryPratchett i know my parents (who are hale and hearty) would say exactly the same re us moving back to the U.K. and would encourage us not to for the DCs sake, although they would live us to be closer.

Brit nationality doesn’t guarantee anything, the unis themselves are allowed to set the rules and they are very based on residence, not nationality
Are you sure? I thought there was a grace period for EU based British nationals? Also 5 years for citizenship?? Can't you chivvy them along a bit? It seems a shame to give up on that now.

I moved a lot as a kid and really hated it so I don't want that for my kids but I understand the longing to.

Found it! Home fees available to British citizens in the EU until 2028 according to this:
study-uk.britishcouncil.org/moving-uk/eu-students

Please note that even if your kids have British citizenship, if they’ve not lived in the U.K. for the past few years, they have to pay international fees.

Here:

If you're expecting ~Edinburgh levels, Paris-Saclay, Paris Science & Lettres, The Sorbonne, ETH Zurich, Copenhagen, Munich, Utrecht, Heidelberg and Ghent are all at a similar-ish level and are quite likely to work out cheaper for a non-EU student than a British resident Brit. Plus they'd all have access to the Erasmus program and are going to be able to attract better staff than post-Brexit UK universities. Although the Paris universities are only ever going to have French staff because they just don't pay enough to live on (hence why I'm leaving!)

Fingers crossed they'll speed up on the nationality thing. They seem to have improved the shit show that is the CPAM application, the taxes and they're doing the Brexit TdS applications remarkably efficiently! Sending you a stiff virtual drink though. French bureaucracy and the generally national unhelpfulness is torture. I do wonder how easy it would be moving back to the UK. It's a long time since I left, and my EU friends in the UK do nothing but complain about illogical British bureaucracy.

Children in general do not like change, but will adapt quickly. We have moved around a fair bit, so have lots of our friends. Our dc have friends all over the world now, and still count people in Scandinavia and the US among their closest friends.

I would tell them that you are moving, if that is the right decision for your family, but try to explain why you are moving and get them on board as far as possible. Is there anything you can offer to sweeten the deal? I know my teens would still move almost anywhere for a puppy...

Sorry, I mean if you're paying 9k a year as a home student in the UK, it's still cheaper to go to the Netherlands where it's 13k for a 3 year bachelors degree for a non-EU student for a comparable quality course. I didn't explain that very well.

Here is the official government advice.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/946292/Eligibility_rules_for_home_fee_status_and_student_finance_for_2021_to_22.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi7p8i196XuAhUowAIHHTYUCUQQFjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw1TFhrB2gZwmxvxQSv1urIi" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/946292/Eligibility_rules_for_home_fee_status_and_student_finance_for_2021_to_22.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwi7p8i196XuAhUowAIHHTYUCUQQFjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw1TFhrB2gZwmxvxQSv1urIi

I think I'd stay in France so everyone can get French citizenship and free movement, to be honest. Go over to your family in the UK for long holidays.
NB the UK is no longer in Erasmus, so your children wouldn't be able to spend a year at a UK university on the Erasmus programme I don't think.
On the other hand - we'd love you to come to Scotland!

I think you have to take your kids views into consideration. It’s a massive thing to force a14 year old to leave his friends and girlfriend especially if you haven’t warned them in advance that it was a possibility.
Is there a natural break in your kids education when you could plan to move? Ie in the U.k moving at 16 could mean your kids could start at a sixth form college along with all the other kids.

Would you keep a home in France if you returned to the UK?

We moved a 10 and 8 yr old back 18 months ago - but not from Europe. So our 10 yr old did a similar move to your youngest - last year of primary, and then on to a new secondary. He's been fine, even with covid.
The younger, shyer, one has struggled- especially with friendships given the in/our nature he's had in school through covid.
It was always a case of "when" and not "if" on coming back tho. We didnt discuss it with them.

I'm not sure how highers work in terms of important years, but I'd guess your oldest is getting to the point that school moves need to fit round exam courses. So it might be a "soon or 2 years" sort of decision. Are the kids in a French school or an international one?

You can only make the best decision for you at the time. It's a tough call to make tho.

Is there a reason you haven't applied for French nationality already?

I ask because you've been in France 13 years, and the brexit vote was over 4 years ago. The fact you didn't apply for French nationality three years ago suggests to me you never actually intended to stay forever (as soon as the vote went through and Id picked my jaw up off the floor and stopped cursing the sheer idiocy of so many of the citizens of the land of my birth I applied for German citizenship. I'd have done so even if it had meant giving up British because I felt Britian had just stuck the middle finger up to its citizens living in the EU, and because like you I moved to my adopted county with a baby and had more babies in my new country, and my kids felt German).

Why do you prefer your children to go to Scottish rather than French university? What if your children go off the rails due to the move and fail their Standards or Highers or just don't want to go to university? What if they want to return to France for university because French is their heart's language/ academic language or they just prefer France?

What if your children want to go to an English university - how do you know your 10 year old won't be Oxbridge material - some average primary and lower secondary school children end up blooming late and getting top grades, while plenty of children who's parents have them labelled as gifted/ academic high flyers at 10 go off the boil for one of many reasons and end up distinctly average.

Whilst I would not let a teen and pre teen make the decision about a move from the EU to the UK, my two teens and one pre teen are the reason I wouldn't even consider the move while they're still at school and not old enough to choose to remain behind independently.

I think it could work out as far as fitting into a Scottish school is concerned. There are 3 exam years. These are (roughly) age 15, age 16 and age 17. So less tricky than moving half way through the 2 year GCSE course.
Of course, there's no problem with a child going to Oxbridge from Scotland. They just have to pay the same fees as English students (whereas Scottish universities are free at the moment for Scottish children). Oxbridge is a pretty good deal, as living costs there are low and they offer bursaries to less well off students.

Your children could still go to a French university - as international fees are low in France.

Is there a reason you haven't applied for French nationality already?

The OP said she applied just after Brexit. Not all countries process citizenship at the same speed - I'm still waiting too!

Sorry my point about English university including Oxbridge was just the cost. Its all very well assuming they'll go to free Scottish university, but if they want to go to an English university its going to cost a lot - 27k in fees atm, but certainly more in 5+ years time. They're less likely to want to switch to an English language university from the French education system, and French university is not quite free but close...

I apologise - I completely missed the subclause "despite having started the process" in the opening post! I read "unless we get nationality here" as the OP not having applied. I stamd corrected thank you Darklingthrush

Sorry OP!

@Goingtothebudgies

Lol I’m guessing that German bureaucracy is a bit more efficient :-) we started the nationality process before the Brexit vote, but our prefecture is the slowest in the country and has only got slowerover time. They’ve changed the process for applying twice, bumping us back to the start, given us duff info that meant we’ve wasted two years not chasing paperwork we did in fact need. We finally submitted our applications using the new online process: the acknowledgment email told us our application will be looked at in 36 months - and that’s just to tell us which other docs to submit!! Add a couple of years to get an interview and eventually a decision... it’s a nightmare.

Children who have moved around throughout their childhoods and expect to move regularly are a completely different beast to children who have never moved and had no reason to expect to be moved (rather than eventually move as adults). Children who are completely integrated in the community they were born in and who have done all their education in the lical stste system in the community language are different to children of expats who've attended international school.

Add a couple of years to get an interview and eventually a decision... it’s a nightmare.

And I thought Italy was slow! (4 years)

We've just moved from (Francophone) Belgium back to the UK after four years, kids ages 11, 9 and 6. They were consulted and were all on board, even my 9 year old though she was the most settled at her Belgian school and is leaving behind tons of friends including her bestie whom she's seen almost every day for the past 4 years. I do believe though that if they had not been on board, ultimately DH and I would've made the same decision.

The context for us is different however as neither DH or me are British (he's American, I am Dutch) but while we have moved every 3 years or so on average for his work, we've spent over 6 years in the UK before, one 3 year period pre-kids when our eldest came along and one 3.5 year period when the kids were all in early primary school years. So the difference for us was that the eldest two very much remembered living in the UK and enjoying their lives there. Additionally, we most likely would not have been able to stay in Belgium indefinitely - a move back to the States for work reasons was in the cards and we much preferred moving back to the UK, for many reasons including that we hope we'll be able to stay here, providing much-needed stability now that our eldest is in Year 7.

Education played into it for us too as the kids are bright and I'd like for them to attend either one of the universities back in the Netherlands or one in the UK and then hopefully settle on this side of the pond, rather than changing schools another few times possibly and settling down in the US. I suppose a French university is still an option as well for the eldest two as I expect they will retain their fluency in the language (the youngest maybe not).

We've only been back a month now but are happy we've made the move. We look forward to visiting friends back in Belgium when it's safe to do so again and my middle daughter speaks to her best friend on a daily basis. We'll see how things go when schools reopen again and the kids start in their new schools. As I said though it was easier for us as the kids ultimately were positive about the move. In your case I would take their concerns into account but at the same time I feel it's ultimately the parents who decide what will be best for the future of the family - though fully understand it will be tough if the kids are not on board when it comes to moving.

miimblemomble the process in my small rural German "Landkreis" took under 6 months from application to citizenship, and the mayor popped in to the foreigner's office of the local goverment office (where I only ever saw one other foreigner) to shake my hand and tell me Britian's loss is our gain

So yep, a bit quicker, sorry In fact ot sounds as if you might have been quicker moving to Germany, doing your 8 years residency, applying for citizenship and then using your freedom of movement to move back to France...