France to UK after 13 years... would you take children's opinion into account?

[miimblemomble]

Hi all

We are a UK family, have been living in France for 13 years. A whole range of issues from ill, elderly, family back home, to Brexit, to Covid, to general fed-up-ness with French bureaucracy is making DH and I both seriously consider moving back to the UK. All our family are there. We used to not feel too far from them, but Covid has made travel all but impossible, and we are missing them a lot. It has brought home the reality of not living down the road (something we have never aspired to before!). DH's parents have both declined physically and we haven't been able to help at all. Brexit means that university in the UK is suddenly not an option for our kids and, unless we get nationality here, they / we can't even benefit from freedom of movement to live anywhere else in Europe. And we are looking at probably 5 more years to get French nationality as our prefecture is so unbelievably shit - despite having started the process back just after Brexit happened!

We've been here all our children's lives (DS1 was 5 months when we arrived, DS2 was born here). DS1 in particular (in 4eme now) has a wide circle of friends and a girlfriend here. He would be so upset if we decided to move now. And DS2, while he would be easier to uproot, he's very shy by nature and I worry about dumping him in the UK in P7 just before starting secondary (we'd be heading to Scotland).

Many of you have made big moves... If you were doing it with teens / ados (10 and 13 yrs) did you take their views into account? Did you ask them - or did you just tell them that it's happening, and they have to suck it up? We haven't moved once since having kids, despite DH and I being pretty mobile in the past. They've grown up with stories or travel and the reality of living far from family, but in their lives they've only experienced stability so far.

6 months?! Wow, I didn't even get the email confirming the receipt of my documents in that time!

Your children are effectively French and they've been settled in one place their whole lives. Moving them to a different culture will be very hard on them, especially if they aren't expecting it. I would absolutely take their feelings into account, particularly as you have a choice

Growing up as an expat brat like @AurelieW's kids is very different.

Darklingthrush email you say... I'm not sure they have that yet here All done on paper in person and by snail mail, but very efficient . I live in 1956, also known as rural Bavaria...

We are moving at the moment, we made the decision as a family, we were keen to listen to their views/opinions etc. They can’t remember living elsewhere, so it was a really big decision, but once we found our new home they were really excited about it. We aren’t making an international move. Of course, you make the final decision as parents. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Even by French standards that's awful! Do you suffer from too many foreigners applying or too few?

@Clymene

Your children are effectively French and they've been settled in one place their whole lives. Moving them to a different culture will be very hard on them, especially if they aren't expecting it. I would absolutely take their feelings into account, particularly as you have a choice

Growing up as an expat brat like @AurelieW's kids is very different.

I agree with this.

I also get the impression that the fact that the UK is "home" for you and your husband is warping your perspective of the impact this would have on your children. France is their home. You sound homesick; they're already home.

Lastly, a lot of us are feeling pretty rubbish about the world at the moment. It is not a good time to be making huge, life changing decisions.

There was some mental health advice on BBC website that suggested this situation should be treated as a trauma almost (for all of us, not just those actually traumatised) and that as after trauma they would advise not to make big decisions for at least 6-12 months when the shockwaves of emotions will have relented and you are able to make a decision more objectively rather than as a knee-jerk attempt to run away from the traumatic event/the fears it's left you with.

I wouldn't be ripping children out of the only country they've ever known as home, at the ages they are, in response to the current shitty situation. Certainly not without giving them a meaningful voice.

@Roselilly36

We are moving at the moment, we made the decision as a family, we were keen to listen to their views/opinions etc. They can’t remember living elsewhere, so it was a really big decision, but once we found our new home they were really excited about it. We aren’t making an international move. Of course, you make the final decision as parents. Good luck with whatever you decide.

We aren’t making an international move.

Not comparable then, is it!

As parents, you have a responsibility to the children to do best by them, not dominate them because you're bigger.

It shows the cultural difference between countries though. I honestly cannot imagine trying to integrate my 13 year old in particular into English school and teen culture, he's too bavarian. My nearly 16 year old would like to live in the UK or even better Ireland - we've been to Ireland on holiday and her current ten year plan has her moving there... She's restless like I was at her age, but she doesn't actually know what a move would entail because she's lived in the same house since she was 18 months old and has children in her class now who she's been in a class with since she was 3!

You don't let the children choose, but theyare at the center of your choice as a parent. Until they are old enough to choose to stay behind independently the choice is about them.

Scottish school is more relaxed than French school. They'd probably cope fine.

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

Oops my last post was to you - and your enviously short nationality application :-) I have friends who’ve been here a long time: they basically rocked up at the local Marie with their passport and their french husband, quick interview, out they go - no language test, no dossier. Not like that now!

We are definitely not expats - we are immigrants, who’ve maintained close links with our home country. At the time, that was fine. Since Brexit, not so easy.

@user1174147897 I think you are right. This current situation is making DH and I feel homesick - something we’ve never, ever been before! We’ve lived away for nearly 20 years now and never wanted to return!

I think that it might be more difficult than you think to slot the 14 Yr old into a UK secondary school unless you have been keeping up with his written English and the UK curriculum. It would be easier to move a teenager that was maths and science inclined than one that preferred history and literature.

What about other factors? Will your house be as big? Will you be financially better or worse off? Are there any sports or clubs they do at the moment that they won't be able to continue with? None of these things are France to UK specific but very relevant if you are moving à 14 Yr old.

I certainly wouldn't do it just for British universities what if they decide they don't want to go? They could do a degree in France and come out debt free with an EU passport. That is a pretty big advantage in life.

I am baffled as to why it is taking you so long to get nationality sorted unless you don't have the correct dossier and language ability. There are strict rules as to how long it can take, 2 yrs once your dossier is complete I believe.

I wouldn’t consult your teenagers - it’s too big a decision for them to feed into what is good for your family, and for their futures re UK/EU movement etc. Teens of that age are mainly worried about their immediate friends, their perspective isn’t broad enough.

I would however try to make them feel as involved as possible in smaller aspects of the move, that they can properly grasp - eg which school, which area. I’d also talk them very clearly and considerately through your decision at the start, and be clear you want them to be involved in a certain level of decision making.

Even if they aren’t happy to start, or take a while to settle, living in two countries is a huge gift to their futures in terms of a broad perspective. It’s a positive thing.

@Frenchfancy

I think our prefecture get round that by not simply not accepting dossiers until they tell you when to complete them. The process currently is:

Complete initial application online with minimal documentation
Wait 36 months for prefecture to tell you what documentation is needed to complete your dossier
Collect and submit extra documents electronically.
Wait for them to check and confirm that they have accepted your dossier... at which point you will eventually get an interview date (1 yr) and a decision following that (1yr). Et voilà, within the letter of the law - if not the spirit.

You could try writing to your MEP to hurry it along a bit!

The funny thing is that some of us in the UK are wishing that we could now be in the EU, due to Brexit!
I think that it may be easier to move the children to a Scottish school than to an English one. They study fewer subjects for exams - at age 15, only 6 or 7 subjects, and at age 16 only 5 subjects. There are some assignments, so it's not all exam based. I would start the older one with some online tutors so that he's secure with writing and discussing things in English, with science vocabulary, etc. Get him some Scottish text or revision books maybe. There's only 1 exam board. I'm sure the younger ones will be fine academically, as school in Scotland is very relaxed until the 4th year of Secondary.

@Darklingthrush

Do I have an MEP ? As I can’t vote in the European elections - or indeed any elections... until I get nationality

Well, your area still has an MEP who might be willing to help and, apart from the last election, you had the right to vote. You can always tell them you support them!

Whilst I did move around as a kid (so was used to it) I moved from Paris to London at the age of 14. I had only been in Paris since age 11 but they are the years I gained my independence etc... I LOVED my school - had lots of friends and lots of laughs. My parents moved me back with them to an all girls school which I will admit to hating.. I cried and begged them to stay in France.

But... life is all good. I did end up liking that school and went on to a mixed 6th form I loved. I have grown up to be a very resilient person and I think some life changes as a kid have certainly helped me.

It's true your kids are essentially French but probably not dissimilar to me moving to Moscow or Paris as an English girl.

As parents you need to make the decision for the greater long term good. You kids will be absolutely fine after the initial change.

One telling thing is that you seem upset that gaining French nationality is taking so long which says you aren't ready to leave France

I believe that the préfectures are no longer responsible for nationality applications, it is now done on a regional level. Find out where your regional office is and contact them.

If you want nationality that is.

I find the best way to deal with French bureaucracy is to just keep reminding them, very politely, that you are not going away. As long as you keep being polite the fonctionnaires will help you rather than the other impolite people they hope will go away.

miimblemomble I had to do a language test (full day - listening, soeaking and writing. Everyone else was Russian or from non EU eastern Europe) and a citizenship test. Had to go to the nearest bigger city for both, out of our little area. Had to show proof of employment and bank statements and a pile of other paperwork. It was still under 6 months.

One thing to be prepared for is that your children may not settle here. A friend of mine did similar and the second they could, both kids returned to the other country, because to them it was their home. Has been especially hard as she hasn't seen them for ages now due to Covid.

They wouldn't find it that easy to return without nationality!

Will you be keeping your house in France and is one of you employed in France? If so you could apply for residency which is much simpler. You can apply online.

It's hard to say how your DC will handle moving back to UK without doing it! I moved to and from France with DC the same age as yours. One difference is that my DC really wanted to move back to UK. However, one of them found the move back to UK aged 14 really hard culturally as she had missed out on so much growing up stuff and took a long time to fit in. School work-wise it was fine.

My oldest really thinks of himself as "Scottish" (though I think he'd get a shock pitching up at secondary school in Dundee where I grew up ;-)) . We are a very anglophone hoosehold, with both DH and I being Scottish and all grandparents and other family. Pre-Covid we'd go to Scotland at least once a year, and as my parents have a holiday house here in France, we'd spend a lot of time with them and have Scottish cousins coming to stay. He games online with his cousin in Edinburgh, and with the cousin's friends - and switches seamlessly to doing the same with his French friends (I love to hear it!). Living in France and maintaining our close family ties has been such a positive option for our family in so many ways: the Auld Alliance lives on! But between Brexit, Covid and the whole world seeming to turn in a nationalistic direction I feel like we are being pushed to get in one camp or the other. And the French one feels very hard to get into, thanks to the nationality delays.

@Frenchfancy I am never anything but polite to fonctionnaires ;-) but it's simply not possible to actually speak to one of them re. nationality. No one's allowed into our prefecture without a RDV (unless you want to join the desperate souls that queue overnight with their pee bottles and blankets) and you won't get a RDV until they decide you can have one. They are overwhelmed with applications and TBH I don't think it's a priority for them as the great majority of applicants are still North Africans, despite the increase in Brits applying. It's definitely the Prefecture that is handling this.

Maybe that's it... the Franco / Scottish life has worked so well for our family for many years in so many ways and now it's being taken away by Brexit and impacted by Covid.