France to UK after 13 years... would you take children's opinion into account?

[miimblemomble]

Hi all

We are a UK family, have been living in France for 13 years. A whole range of issues from ill, elderly, family back home, to Brexit, to Covid, to general fed-up-ness with French bureaucracy is making DH and I both seriously consider moving back to the UK. All our family are there. We used to not feel too far from them, but Covid has made travel all but impossible, and we are missing them a lot. It has brought home the reality of not living down the road (something we have never aspired to before!). DH's parents have both declined physically and we haven't been able to help at all. Brexit means that university in the UK is suddenly not an option for our kids and, unless we get nationality here, they / we can't even benefit from freedom of movement to live anywhere else in Europe. And we are looking at probably 5 more years to get French nationality as our prefecture is so unbelievably shit - despite having started the process back just after Brexit happened!

We've been here all our children's lives (DS1 was 5 months when we arrived, DS2 was born here). DS1 in particular (in 4eme now) has a wide circle of friends and a girlfriend here. He would be so upset if we decided to move now. And DS2, while he would be easier to uproot, he's very shy by nature and I worry about dumping him in the UK in P7 just before starting secondary (we'd be heading to Scotland).

Many of you have made big moves... If you were doing it with teens / ados (10 and 13 yrs) did you take their views into account? Did you ask them - or did you just tell them that it's happening, and they have to suck it up? We haven't moved once since having kids, despite DH and I being pretty mobile in the past. They've grown up with stories or travel and the reality of living far from family, but in their lives they've only experienced stability so far.

I would float the idea that you might have to move back or want to choose to, saying 'not yet but we wanted you to be aware that it might have to happen'. And then let it percolate and discuss the possible advantages and timings while you decide. And if as adults you do decide to do it you have prepared the ground. Kids brains are hugely specialised for the culture they grow up in, adolescent brains are in a period of plasticity so they are not the worst ages but change/fitting in /anxiety might make it a rocky road.

We are Irish, have been here for 22 years and our dcs born here. If you stay in France and get citizenship you could go to Ireland. Great Unis ( my ds is doing medecine ) and you pay 3000 euros a year as an EU national.That is if your dc want to go down the anglophone path.

I've been in France 14 years and have recently had to renew my titre de sejour due to divorce. I'd already emailed prefecture about the change and as soon as I had the divorce they emailed me with a rdv to give me a new one.
I appreciate that a tds is a bit different to being naturalised as French, but can't understand it taking so long. Whereabouts are you? I'm in the Limousin.
The whole process took about 4 weeks, getting snarled up in the mad rush for new driving docs in December.

are different to children of expats who've attended international school.

In my experience, international schools are geared up to expect new pupils and know what support they need. There is little of the traditional culture found in some schools where how long you had been their conferred some seniority and explaining how things work was frowned on

Moving back to traditional schools not vary up to welcome people moving countries and cultures is not much fun, especially as a child.

My oldest really thinks of himself as "Scottish"

I was born in London and my British parents moved around a bit. It never occurred to me that I was anything other than English til I found myself in an English public school. Shudder.

The culture of the school is so important to support your children moving cultures. Have a look at some of the literature in third culture kids.

I wouldn't do it in your position. All the best.

@pinkhousesarebest :UK citizens can already move to Ireland and send their DCs to Irish universities at Irish prices. There's a special arrangement in place between the UK and Ireland which is not affected by Brexit. The Irish can do the same in the UK.

Mind you, I anticipate that Irish universities will from now one be very hard to get into, as loads of EU people will be applying to go there.

as loads of EU people will be applying to go there.
I wouldn't bank on it as they have the whole rest of the EU to choose from and so many universities offer courses in English now.

I cant chip in on the kids side of things, but I advise on universities as my job so you should know:
There is a seven year grace period (so fine for the older one, not the younger?) in UK university fees for British students resident in the EU. They will pay home fees and be eligible for student loans for the duration of courses as long as they start within 7 years of now. This does mean you'd pay RUK fees in Scotland probably, though.
The Irish University reciprocal agreement applies to British students resident in the UK only. So for Irish universities they'd be eligible if they get French citizenship, or if they go home, but not if they stay in France but don't get citizenship. Irish universities are already seeing an uptick in EU applications and expect it to increase (and are actively recruiting for the first time in a long time).
There are great options in the Netherlands, Switzerland and Germany, andsome but fewerr in other EU countries, which will be very cheap (max 2000 euros a year) for a French citizen. Most are more for a UK citizen now, although many still more manageable than UK fees.

All of this (in the EU countries) may change, however. Some countries give EU fees to EU residents, not EU passport holders. Some the other way round. All are revaluating what to do about British passport holders legally resident in the EU with protected rights post brexit. No one has declared a final answer yet, as the original plan was for us to retain all rights except freedom of movement and voting, but all that is now being negotiated at national, EU and bilateral levels.

@MrsTerryPratchett

I moved countries at a similar age. I was not consulted. But that was a temporary move. I was fine, my brother was not. He was the shy one.

In this case the needs of you and your parents seem to be trumping the obviously benefits of staying to your children. I think it's less about asking them, more about considering them. That sounds blunt but post-Brexit, post-covid UK is going to be pretty shit for your kids.

Exactly this ^

@Ulelia

I’ve seen the info on the gov.uk site re the seven year allowance for U.K. nationals. It only applies in England, according to that page. The link to the Scottish info from that page takes you to the SAAS. I contacted them and they told me that they could only confirm that they would offer a tuition fees of up to £9250 to my theoretical U.K. national / EU resident applicant starting 2021. They said it was up to individual universities to decide on the tuition fees status of applicants, not them. As far as I can see the Scottish gov has not yet made any announcement as to how they will treat U.K. national / Eu resident applicants from 2021. Individual unis are taking different approaches: Edinburgh do specify Rest of U.K. fees for this situation, Stirling do not - and confirmed by email that any student applying «from» the EU (including U.K. nationals) would be treated as international students from 2021 on.

Anyway, I’m getting bogged down in the uni thing when in reality it’s years away for us! I need to know about it for work which is why I’ve gone into it in depth.

That sounds blunt but post-Brexit, post-covid UK is going to be pretty shit for your kids.

Is it really going to be that bad? Maybe I’ve got me rose-tinted specs on, absence making the heart grow fonder.

I think you've almost made it to the end of Covid travel restrictions. Assuming no further nasty surprises with mutations, you should be able to visit your parents at the end of March. They will have had the vaccine. Perhaps you could take them back to France with you for a couple of months if they are in good health.
Would your DC be entitled to a free place at Scottish universities if you moved now? I assume you or your DH don't qualify for an Irish passport?

If you and your DH are genuinely homesick I can understand, but OP please don't make a huge decision to move your family back to the UK as a knee-jerk reaction to this horrible past year. If your little area of France wasn't so slow on the residency issue would you even be considering this? If Covid hadn't happened, would you be thinking of moving back? If the answer to both those questions is 'no' then I think you need to both take a deep breath and just ride this shit out - or at least resolve to shelve the issue for another year and see if things improve.

The reality is (from a person living in the UK with my DPs also living here), that many of us who live relatively close to our families have barely seen them either. I live 100 miles from mine and we saw them in July and I saw my DM in December to hand over Christmas presents. With Covid being rife and them being older it simply hasn't been safe or wise to mix with them apart from that.

I've lived OS and if I'd been OS this past year I can well imagine how desperate I might be feeling at this point, because there is something really stressful and awful about not being able to get home even if you wanted to, but taking the long view it seems like madness to chuck in all you have in France in order to rush back to the UK for what? Once Covid is over (which will hopefully be within the next year), things should revert back to something like normal. You'll be able to visit the UK again whenever you want, nip over to help/check on your parents, them to visit you in France. There's a saying that you should never make a life-changing decision within a year of an extreme trauma and for many Covid/Brexit has been exactly that.

Hi OP,
I have quite a similar experience to your kids. I grew up in France, attending French schools etc. Both parents British, grandparents were in the UK.
We moved from France to another EU country when I was 13. It was grim. I hated it and would say it was at least 2 years before I got over it. I was extremely unhappy.
Also, although your oldest may think of himself as Scottish, others won't. I experienced this full-force when I went to university in the UK, where my opinion was regularly brushed off with "but you're foreign". He will never be considered fully Scottish by others, I'm afraid.
I can see you're struggling with Covid (but it's going to go away at some point so I don't think it should be the basis for your decision). We can't see people who live down the road from us, so really it makes no difference whether they live nearby or on the other side of the world.
As for your problems with the Prefecture (maybe you could name it). I have many friends who are going through the process and I know how frustrating it can be. Just hang on in there and it will eventually happen. Incidentally, my parents regret not getting French nationality before we left, your children will have so many more opportunities with a French passport.
Good luck OP! I know it's tough, especially at the moment.

I’d take the children’s opinions into account, but that’s because I was a child that was made to move at 10 for no reason other than my parent wanted to. I had a horrible first year after the move and there was no benefit to me even after I was settled, I’d still have been just as happy if not happier in the previous location.

If you are sure that there will be clear benefits to your children and they will have opportunities they wouldn’t have otherwise, then you can discuss it with them and get them on side, but if they really don’t want to go, I think it would be selfish to move them.

We’re in a similar situation. I really want to hang on until dc2 is 13, so he can have the nationality (ds1 got it in 3 months after his 13th, as it’s automatic at that age if you were born and lived continuously here).

Home fees were worrying us but turn out not to be a problem. Our hand might be forced by Macron’s ridiculous new law if it passes, as we homeschool and he wants to make that illegal. Thet would tip us over the edge.

Dc like the idea, but I think the reality of living there as opposed to being on holiday will come as a huge shock to them.

I understand your children's feelings are important but children (and people generally) are always resistant to change - but surprisingly adaptable too.

Military families and those with international companies have to do this sort of thing all the time. On the one hand it's hard, of course it's hard. On the other hand it does teach a certain amount of adaptability and resilience. They will be fine in the long term.

In your situation I would move.

Before considering settling in Scotland, it might be wise to think about the job/tax situation in Scotland going forward. It may be prudent to wait and see what happens in the next Scottish elections and on the independence referendum front. The uncertainty will hit inward investment. If Scotsnet/ anecdotal comment is to be believed, a significant number of Scotland’s higher rate tax payers (only 6-8 per cent of the 5.5 m population) will move to England/ elsewhere if independence looks likely. It will be a very different country for good or bad depending on your beliefs if we go down the independence road again. On worst case scenario we’d be out of Europe, alienated from our biggest trading partner - England - and considerably poorer given loss of English tax base..... free uni tuition, prescriptions etc may not be on the table for long.

@MrsTerryPratchett
"That sounds blunt but post-Brexit, post-covid UK is going to be pretty shit for your kids."

Frankly people move away from family to Australia...part of a bigger picture for your kids.

Would moving to Scotland really be better for you all? Darker, wetter and colder than france?

Also..it seems likely they will at some point vote for independence and with the largest budget deficit of any European country and 4 times that of Greece so there will be some extremely painful fiscal realignment.

I would stay put as going to Scotland compared to where you are currently...is not likely to be some massive improvement. Covid will pass and travel will return

I live in France. Teens born here. I cannot think of a single advantage for your kids of moving to the UK now. Possibly for uni.

Unless you can afford to put them in top private schools. Really I wouldn't even consider this.

When I've gone back to the UK for a longer visit it's been a real shock to take off my holiday glasses. You think you know it, but the country you left is not the same now.

We moved to America when I was 12. I wasn’t consulted at all. I was devastated and then ended up absolutely loving it. At that age I made friends fast and it was a lot of fun.

I wouldn’t consult a child of that age. They’ll only say they don’t want to move but can’t possibly understand all the issues.

Don't make a decision based on the current Covid situation. I share your pain, but it won't last forever and with vaccinations being rolled out here and there the end is in sight even if it won't be immediate. As my mum keeps pointing out - we wouldn't be able to see each other even if we lived in the UK at the moment. Will you feel the same once you can hop backwards and forwards on the Eurostar again? Your nationality application is in - if your kids were born there it will be automatic for them (albeit with a bit of form filling, faffing and waiting etc etc). You and dh could just get carte de sejour if the worst comes to the worst. As British citizens your kids will still be eligible for UK uni fees and loans. Will they even want to study in the UK? My DD started at a UK uni last year and absolutely hated it - having felt extremely English living in France it took moving to the UK to make her realise she was in fact more French than she realised and she has subsequently started a course at a uni in Paris. DS is currently applying to UK and Irish unis, but applying to France as well to keep his options open. In your situation I would not leave without first securing French nationality for your kids - Brexit will make it very difficult for them to return if you do not (they need five years continuous residency - just applying for our two whose residency was interrupted due to breaks for foreign postings). We have moved our kids around, but only because DH is in a job (French company) which necessitates international moves. I wouldn't do it on a whim. Easy to leave - much more difficult to go back now.

You think you know it, but the country you left is not the same now. Just saw this comment and I completely agree. We went back after ten years away and found a massive change. It was not just the U.K. that had changed, we’d changed too - inevitably I suppose. Going back to live is not the same as going on holiday. Funnily enough I didn’t experience the same thing when we moved back to France (after roughly the same amount of time away) - I think that’s partly down to the fact that I expect to feel slightly disconnected when living in a foreign country whereas I didn’t expect that in the U.K. Your kids may find it difficult because having been led to believe they are British (Scottish?) they will discover that in fact they are very French - although this will not be immediately apparent to others who will therefore fail to make allowances. All surmountable of course, but just something to be aware of.

The applications process for French citizenship sounds like a screaming nightmare, but in your case I would be really reluctant to move before getting it, because if your DC have grown up in France they may well wish to return there as adults and will get a real shock if they find they're not easily able to. I would stay put until they at least have that freedom of movement guaranteed.

To those of you who say you’ve returned to the UK and found it’s not the same place - could you elaborate a bit? What has changed exactly? Am assuming you means the changes haven’t been positive. Am in similarish position to the OP & can’t decide what to do for the best.

DH and I are both English, living abroad we feel very British - speak English at home, watch the BBC - it can feel like we are in a little bubble of Englishness, French friends joke about it and say it feels like they've crossed the channel when they come to dinner with us. Of course what you don't really appreciate is that while you are hanging onto all the bits of Englishness that you like (drinking tea, making gravy, going to M&S to buy Cheddar or whatever) you are also picking up on lots of culture of the country where you are living. Also your memory of the UK is of the UK you left behind - we were away 10 years from 1999 and I came back to find a Britain obsessed with TV reality shows like Big Brother and the X Factor which had completely passed me by - not important you might think, but trying to fit back into a society making references to minor celebrities I had never heard of made feel extremely foreign. Except you are not a foreigner in England so your ignorance just seems slightly out of touch and hard to explain. You are back home, but you don't feel entirely at home - where once I might have made jokes about the Germans or the French (we were in Paris and Berlin) I suddenly found myself defending them (I imagine that would be even more the case now since Brexit). My nostalgia for Britain was replaced by a nostalgia for the countries I had left behind - preserving German and French traditions that my children had grown up with, going to Lidl for the German treats that were childhood staples. Missing the matchless French health service and the quiet roads of Berlin. It's even harder for children if they have never lived in the UK before, mine were slightly cushioned by getting places at the Lycee Francais in London, but their cultural reference points were all French and German. Lollipop ladies, ice cream vans, children in school uniform were all sources of wonder and amazement - as was the discovery that most English children only spoke one language (at some sub-conscious level they kind of knew this, but actually living there and discovering it to be true was still hard to grasp and seemed like a massively wasted opportunity to my 7 year old dd). I thought I was an old hand at foreign postings and that London would be a piece of cake - it was not the case. For example our 10 year no claims bonus (abroad) counted for nothing when it came to getting car insurance in the UK where we were starting from scratch. But because I expected it to be easier it always pulled me up short when it wasn't. In the end what helped me settle back in was when a French family moved in next-door-but-one. Helping them feel at home in England helped me to feel at home.