Where to live - France or London

[Almondmilk]

Hello all,
first of all, sorry for the ramble if someone recognise my eternal dilemma.

I am French, my husband is Swedish, we met in London where we lived for several years. We now live in Stockholm with our child. After several years of trying I still can't imagine myself living longer here. I don't like the introvert culture and the climate.

Now, there are two options:
-me finding a job in France and settling in a smaller town where we know no one. Climate will be better, school is free and access to other countries, some friends in other cities and family not too far. But still a quiet life. As for husband not sure what he will do.
-me moving my business to London or a city nearby. Friends and week-end social opportunities, not far from France, climate is much better than in Sweden, husband can find some work. Big problem: finding housing without a stable income.

I talk to friends and family but no one can really help me to see clearer. It would be easier to move to France but I am worried to get bored there or to have a stay at home husband.
I thought maybe someone here could give me an opinion.

Again, if you have read about this dilemma, be kind, it's been too long that I am stuck with the problem...

cheers

@LeGrandBleu your point of view on education is interesting. Here in Sweden, kids seem pretty happy. But I find that there is a big lack of literature. All of them have a very dirty hand writing unless they study at international schools. Some of them are shocked if you ask them to write, they struggle and they prefer to take notes on their laptops. They are great at languages.

Some of you seem to advice me to go to France. I believe that London is on the door step. So either way would be a closer step to family and friends.

@Almondmilk it is not only literature. One might argue that this is not a XXI century skill but the small applies to so many subject. Take geography. I have seen the whole curriculum in Australia, as with 3 children I have covered the content of primary school and high school. Nothing about the big rivers, mountains of the world, no a single lesson about countries and their capitals, and then you speak to a mum at pick up and she asks about holiday and you say you went to New Caledonia and she asks where that is. In front of Australia, before Vanuatu, before the Fiji. The amount of ignorance is mind-blowing. But it might be Australia. I have to say I had worse from Americans. I shared a house with last year Uni students on exchange from St Louis, Missouri. On their arrival, they were pissed as they had discovered UK was an island while browsing through the inflight magazine and they had thought about hitchhiking through Europe and now had to purchase ferry/train .

However in 2021, education isn't limited to school and you can complete the holes, gaps with books at home, a big world map on the wall, and whatever is important for you that you want your kids to know. If provided by the school great, if not, there is no excuse with internet.

I would still recommend regular holidays in France. There is less body shame. We are not so embarrassed by our body and nudity in general

Can I throw the Netherlands into the mix? I've lived there and France among other places, and whilst I like France for the food and culture, NL is a million times easier and less stressful.

Culturally its about half way between Sweden and France (apart from the food. Sorry. That's pure Northern European). Efficient bureaucracy, English is pretty much an official language, decent economy, lots of jobs even without Dutch, relaxed schools (also some French lycees), loads of educated immigrants, slightly better weather than the UK, definitely better than Sweden. It's also 3 hours by train Amsterdam-Paris or 6 to Marseille. Housing is much higher quality than in France although expensive in the cities. Healthcare is more British style (come back if the paracetamol doesn't work type approach) but much better funded and more accessible. Dutch is massively easier to learn than French or German. It's pretty regular with a small vocabulary and all the semi-technical words are English.

@lekkerkroketje

I'm not surprised you didn't find France so easy. I'm not sure it would work for my husband. NL is an idea but I don't think I can cope with another language - even if everyone can speak English. I like what you describe and it seems like a good country though.
These days I'm thinking England near London just so it's easy for everyone to work and see friends. But then brexit is still around the corner.

Some days I think I should give up on moving because it's going to be to hard to make it happen : job, flat, preschool. Having to figure out everything on my own.

I remember your old thread - I'm Scandi living in London - and I'd say London all the way if you can afford it.

That would the best option for both you and your husband - no one with the upper hand socially. It would just be more fair and equal. Plus it's so easy to make friends in London.

As for education and health care, I have to say that I have found the state provision excellent for adult and child. We can afford private alternatives for both, but have not seen a need for it for either purpose. I believe that the level of care and education we have (had) access to (so far) is superior to what we would have had in Stockholm for example.

Culturally, London is exceptional. I've taken my DCs to all sorts of things because it's so easily accessible. And the standard is so high - make it theatre, art museums, authors' talks etc. I also love the diversity of people and I'm so grateful that DCs are brought up with that.

I've lived in other European cities and it's been nice and they're great to visit. But to live - London, all the way.

@happiestwhenwithfriends I like your name and I agree!
London is fab, I miss it dearly. I know how crazy it is too. I would like to find a nice corner safe and not too central. Brexit is really in the way though. If we aren't there before december 2020 it could be very hard to get approval to stay. We don't have much money, we are both creative and freelancers. In Stockholm people don't have the same interests as us (especially as me).

France seems too isolating for husband.

Stockholm was great with a baby/toddler. My husband is concerned for his childhood/teenage years as he sees a lot of shallowness.

@happiestwhenwithfriends also, are your kids in a public school in London?

It's no fun to sit in a dinner party where you can only smile and nod..

I second this. My OH is French and for the past 10 years I've spent the majority of my time with him in Paris. I am partially deaf so learning French was not an option although I tried at the beginning. Also he refuses to speak French with me, preferring to speak English! We've been in lockdown at my home in London and frankly I much prefer it back here even without being able to socialise!

However I do think you will find it very difficult to become permanent residents in the UK now. The Government seem adamant to keep 'foreigners' out (unless you happen to come from Hong Kong atm) I would suggest perhaps living somewhere near the Swiss border as a friend of mine did post university when she worked as a translator at the UN. But your husband should still take an intensive course to learn French and practise speaking it as much as possible.

I really feel for you, almondmilk!

I am in a similar situation, with commitments in two countries that I’m currently stuck between, and I think I want to go and live in a third!

I’m currently in London, and what I would say to you is that it is not currently the fun London you may remember. The buzz is gone, and my worry is that it won’t have enough time to reanimate itself post-lockdown before the horror of Brexit really hits

It’s really hard to make these decisions.

Come to London and send your children to the Lycee in South Kensington....

@Destroyedpeople I wish! But This is way too expensive. And not sure my husband would agree with french dominating...

@SophocIestheFox where do you want to move?
Yes the window between lockdown and brexit seems very small. After that it will probably be impossible.
The London is gone? The good people are still there!

@sunshinesupermum sounds difficult! But great if your husband speaks english. You have a house in London, that sounds like you can come back anytime. Lucky! I dream of having a house in London!

France

Almondmilk it's a flat but it's still home even after 10 years in Paris IYSWIM! Good people ARE still in London for sure but pollution is awful again now that lockdown has lifted.

London has not 'gone' it's just a bit different right now same as everywhere...
There's some lovely state primary schools that are more or less international...like in Highgate or Muswell Hill. ..

@Almondmilk Yes, DCs go to a local state school and will continue with that for secondary. I live around the area that @Destroyedpeople refer to.

Brexit has changed things, for sure, but depending on the area maybe not as much. "My" area is very international and I love the community. And talking about community, if there is one positive thing from covid-19 is that I have realised what a strong community spirit we have here.

But money is the key issue as far as I see it. It is not cheap but if you can afford it, it is so worth it. And as I said before - in my experience - the education, health services (medical, dental) that is provided via the tax bill (ie not going private) have for me and my family been excellent. And it is not that we don't have standards. I'm just very pleased with what we have experienced (of course, everything can be improved but that goes for anything regardless of financial model).

I personally love London foremost for the people. And the majority of the people are still here.

But with Brexit approaching, you really need to get your skates on the register for pre-settled status before the end of the year...

*... and register for pre-settled status"... that is

I think both have their advantages and disadvantages. French paperwork can be complicated, there are often strikes but they do have a really good social security system. London is such an international city with a big French population anyway and easy access between the two countries. Of course no one knows what Brexit will bring but its been four years since the original brexit vote and not much has changed in real terms, if you can get a good job in the UK, I'm pretty sure you will be able to stay, London would collapse if all the EU nationals there left!

Sorry, forgot to say that I have no experience of living in Paris but would not be against it (I even had a job offer in Paris pre-DCs but decided to stay in London). But in your situation, with one being French and one being Swedish, I think that London would be a better fit and more "equal". And once things are more settled again, Paris is only 2hrs away on the train. I've been going for the day a few times...

I second (third, fourth?) London as I'm planning on returning there myself next year. But you have mentioned Brighton? Which is it?
I love the Parsons Green area and Wimbledon. The former because everything is right there - nice architecture, good pubs, plenty of cafes and shops and just a bus ride to ever more shops and museums etc. Green space too. I have found everyone friendly and helpful. I was there last Halloween and it was lovely seeing the little kids trick or treating and the workers congregating at the pubs. It was buzzy and a real community. Not cheap - a three bed terrace will be £1.25m and up.

@happiestwhenwithfriends Imo London is better than Paris, people are much nicer. And I agree with you, it's so easy to get there when living in London. This is also one of the pros: getting closer to France.
It's great to have the opinion of a Swede living in London. I'm pondering a lot whether I should push for that move because Stockholm is such a safe place. It makes the rest of the world looks scary! Safe and bored though! Do you find the costs much higher than in Sweden? (Apart from nursery which we know is the cheapest in Scandinavia).

@Pipandmum I mentioned Brighton because it seems to be a good option for Europeans. Parsons Green is way too expensive for us.

@sunshinesupermum pollution is a big malus indeed....

@Almondmilk I haven't actually lived in Sweden for many many years now but I go back several times a year (well, not this year, of course) but I'd say that housing is more expensive in London if you want similar standard. And childcare as you mentioned. On the other hand children start school the year they turn 5 so fewer years of childcare needed. Public transport is more expensive but I really don't feel that they are comparable. The size of the cities are so different.

Food and culture I think it better priced here. I mean, there's not a limit to what you can pay for anything but there are always options for one's budget. For things to do there are also lots of free stuff to do if you're resourceful.

Did you say that both of you are freelancers? Or does any of you have more of a steady income? Because I've always had a steady income, that would worry me but that'd be a worry for me regardless of where I lived! Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions

There's a Swedish school in Barnes, south west London, so lots of Swedes around there. Nice part of town too, but you need money to afford to live there.

Agree London much nicer to live in than Paris and that's down to the people. SO MUCH friendlier in London! I have lived in both and London felt like Disneyworld after Paris.