Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Living overseas

Whether you're considering emigrating or an expat abroad, you'll find likeminds on this forum.

Where to live - France or London

114 replies

Almondmilk · 13/04/2020 14:13

Hello all,
first of all, sorry for the ramble if someone recognise my eternal dilemma.

I am French, my husband is Swedish, we met in London where we lived for several years. We now live in Stockholm with our child. After several years of trying I still can't imagine myself living longer here. I don't like the introvert culture and the climate.

Now, there are two options:
-me finding a job in France and settling in a smaller town where we know no one. Climate will be better, school is free and access to other countries, some friends in other cities and family not too far. But still a quiet life. As for husband not sure what he will do.
-me moving my business to London or a city nearby. Friends and week-end social opportunities, not far from France, climate is much better than in Sweden, husband can find some work. Big problem: finding housing without a stable income.

I talk to friends and family but no one can really help me to see clearer. It would be easier to move to France but I am worried to get bored there or to have a stay at home husband.
I thought maybe someone here could give me an opinion.

Again, if you have read about this dilemma, be kind, it's been too long that I am stuck with the problem...

Wine cheers

OP posts:
DC10 · 17/04/2020 00:49

My cousin moved from the UK last year with her French DP to live in the south of France, partly to be near his elderly parents and partly for the lifestyle. They had no other family or friends there. She loves it there and is very happy except for the work situation. She is highly qualified/experienced but has only been able to pick up TEFL work and he has had to take temp manual labour. She says the UK is def better for work, but London? Very expensive city to live in (London native myself). I don't know anything about settled status. If me, I'd go to France.

Butterfly44 · 17/04/2020 01:00

France. Lyon is beautiful. Lovely weather, river...mountains for skiing, you can travel anywhere easily.

Astoatora54 · 17/04/2020 01:07

I would choose France - but is Italy an option ?

Actionhasmagic · 17/04/2020 01:30

London

Trenisenne · 18/04/2020 19:58

How about Annecy? It's beautiful and is close enough to Geneva (if you can tolerate a commute) for your husband to find an English speaking job. I would say though that while English speaking jobs are still common in Geneva, I feel as though over the past five years, it has become more and more likely that some level of French is expected.

Almondmilk · 19/04/2020 08:39

@Trenisenne Annecy seems very nice but it's close to impossible for me to find a job and flats/houses are expensive.

@Actionhasmagic How do I convince my husband?

@Butterfly44 Lyon is pretty good indeed! well connected and people are nice.

@DC10 UK is def better for work. And even for freelance, all type of jobs. But I could only imagine somewhere near Brighton. I'm sure they are other places but I don't know them.

@Astoatora54 I love Italy but it doesn't seem convenient for us. Once we are in France, Italy is on the door step for hoildays.

OP posts:
Almondmilk · 19/04/2020 08:41

Husband is more interested in France for climate but also if I can inspire him with a big flat or a house.

OP posts:
Gfplux · 20/04/2020 18:05

Have you given any thought to Luxembourg.
There are a large number (+/-50,000) French living here. Approximately half the population are non Luxembourgers and probably plenty of Swedes.

English is a very common business language here.

BC (before Corona) lots of work opportunities with high salaries.
Only down side is the very very high cost of housing. Big plus FREE public transport.

LeGrandBleu · 01/05/2020 06:24

I lived several years in London before having children, and have raised my children in several European countries (Spain, Italy, Luxembourg, Switzerland) and we are now in Australia.
My children haven't been enrolled in the Uk educational system but I believe the Australian one is very similar to the UK one, so it might not apply to UK.

With children, I would go to the South of France.
I am horrified by the Australian education system, the stress and obsession of private or religious schools, the shallowness of the content and the huge gaps it leaves. I have 3 children, my youngest arrived here in Year 1 after having had a single term of Italian primary school in which she learned to read (started school in September not able to read like most of her class, by December could read everything , like most of her class, typical syllabic method, B+A=BA) , she joined a Y1 class here in January, in which half the class struggled to read in the phonics system, and this struggle continued for many up to year 3. My DD didn't know a single word in English, but could read out of an English book with the worst pronunciation and accent until she learned the language and then her reading sounded English. My eldest is finishing Y12 this year, so I have now seen all the content of primary school and all the content of high school. OMG the gaps in education, shocking, especially in history and literature, what we would call culture générale. In France, we do a century/year, so the likes of Rabelais and Montesquieu one year, Rousseau and Voltaire the next, and so on up to the modern authors Camus, Sartre in your final year. Here you get Shakespeare every single year, it is as if they only had a single playwright you do a different play every year.
The same in history. Massive jumps and gaps, no chronological order of events when in reality every event is the consequence of the event prior to it.
Geography doesn't include the world, its nations, main rivers and mountains, but focuses on globalisation, agriculture, which is fair enough, but then people have no idea where some countries are, including some that are the closest to Australia's border. A mother didn't know where New Caledonia was, when it is the closest foreign country to its borders.
No ideas on painters, musicians, there was a Monet and impressionists exhibition and I asked a friend if she wanted to come with me, she didn't know who Monet was or any of the other painters.

Luckily as a family, we have tons of books and travel to Europe twice a year so take the kids to Museums and art cities.

The level of culture is extremely low.

I would recommend you find some French expat forum in UK and ask some views about the content of school curriculum.

In Uk , the medical system will be very different. GP and not paediatrician care for children, if you need a specialist visit or test, it is usually very hard to get one in some part of UK. This is something I have really missed here. Children are not small adults and GP can't really do and know everything, especially when it comes to mental wellbeing.

Another thing that has surprised me here is how body-shy people are. And I live on the Northern Beaches near Manly. Very body conscious, quite ashamed, lots of complexes, in French, we would say "coincés et mal dans leur peau".

We have been here long enough to become Australians, but I miss Europe, the lifestyle, the food, the happiness, the laughter, la douceur de vivre.

I had fun in London in my 20s-30s, not sure how fun it would be with children. Maybe Cambridge or Oxford, both remind me of good old Europe.

In France, you would also have the advantage of being near the sea and near the ski, weather is nice, and beware of the racism.
I have friends who work as lecturers at Oxford University and since Brexit, they have received abuse in the street or the bus when talking French to their kids, and being told to get back where they came from. Not once, not twice, several times.

Australia is beautiful but what makes you happy in a city or country is not how beautiful the country is but the people and the friends you can make. Maybe I came to Australia too late in life, but I struggle here, after having lived in Italy and Spain. To be fair to Australia, Switzerland was a lot worse on the friendship front (and racism!!) .
Don't go to Switzerland!

Failedtothinkofanythingorigina · 01/05/2020 08:08

From speaking to someone who lived in France, it can be close to impossible to get a job (except in Paris) if you're not French even with fluent French. The comment I had this for was Lyon and the person had lived all over the world and had never had this issue before. They were used to having to hustle for a job and put themselves out there but in Lyon they hit a wall.

LeGrandBleu · 01/05/2020 10:05

I want to apologise for my previous post. I feel grumpy and lonely today, and even if what I wrote is what I think, I could have put it in a better way.

Gfplux · 01/05/2020 12:59

@leGrandBleu
Don’t worry. The extreme social distancing gets to us all even before Corona.

Enjoy the sunshine, here in Luxembourg on May 1st it is raining.
Just for you I send you this photo, they come from my garden

Where to live - France or London
ppeatfruit · 01/05/2020 13:21

Aaah Gf Thank you for the pic of les Muguets !!!! Here in Fr.they used to give bunches away on MayDay, you can buy them tomorrow in the markets they're finally allowing them to open tomorrow !!!!!

Sorry for derailing Almond . We have a 2nd home here, I have no trouble making friends . My French ain't perfect by any means. DH works from home and he does speak Fr. well. But we do have more french friends than English. The education system suits some children but not the 'dreamers' . The English one is not wonderful either very stressful for the children.

LeGrandBleu · 01/05/2020 21:56

@Gfplux Villmools Merci!
Flowers

AnotherEmma · 01/05/2020 22:10

France. Lyon is a wonderful city. I've lived there and visited several times since. That's where DH and I would go if we moved to France.

I'm surprised by how casual you are about the possibility of being closer to your family and friends. I suppose you're used to it, living in Sweden. But that would be a big factor in my decision, personally.

As for jobs, it will be easier in a big city, of course. Lyon should be fine for you but will be trickier for your DH - would he be able (and interested) in remote working and/or something language related? Otherwise there's always Paris, not that I'd want to live there personally (DH and I did live there briefly).

We are an English/French couple btw and we live in the UK - we might move to France one day but I'm very reluctant to move away from my family (and we don't have the equivalent in France).

As EU citizens you would have the right to move to the UK and work here - you'd get pre-settled status and if you got jobs you'd have the "right to reside". It would take 5 years to obtain settled status and the right to permanent residence.

dreamingbohemian · 01/05/2020 22:30

I understand your dilemma, I met my French husband in London and we have moved around since then, we lived in France and now Berlin. But we are moving back to London this year hopefully.

We both love France but there are a couple reasons why we chose London instead. First, it is very difficult to get a job there unless you speak French very very well. With a few exceptions. So you need to be realistic about what your husband can do. Second, French schools tend to be more intense and stressful. Third, we found it much more difficult to build a social life there, in London it was much easier.

So for us we decided to live in London but make lots of trips to France to see family, this is a good compromise.

ppeatfruit · 02/05/2020 08:45

Though almond The South of France becomes unbearably hot in the summer. Even my semi Italian dh couldn't stand it when we had a flat there. Your dh (unless he's a total sunworshipper) would probably be like me (I have Northern European ancestors) I have to stay inside (esp. for 3 hours midday) here (MW France) and even in England in the summer!!

I fancy living in Scotland DH would have a fit there!

12FreeRangeEggs · 04/05/2020 17:40

Having lived in London, Stockholm, Paris, various parts of rural France and French speaking Switzerland...i would pick London.

Rural France, close enough to the Swiss border to commute to Geneva, is dull. Annecy is lovely but too far to commute to Geneva. Switzerland is lovely, i really loved it, but my none of my French friends who lived in Romandie (and there were quite a few) were that happy. In fact my only non Swiss friends who lived in Romandie and who were miserable were my French friends. I don’t know why.

Paris, amazing. Lyon lovely. But your husband will struggle without very good French. I know that people “get by” but getting by isn’t sustainable forever, you know that, that is why you are unhappy now. And finding good employment right now is very hard in France.

Stockholm, i hated. Cold in more ways than one! I know why you want to leave.

London and surrounding areas are in my opinion the best option. It is cosmopolitan, easy living, fun, lots of employment opportunties, good social opportunities. Starting your own business in UK is so so easy. My kids go to French school on the weekend to keep up their French. Run by French nationals in London suburb. Brilliant. The rest of Europe is so accessible, education is IMHO good.

Downsides of London are obviously not as good family benefits as France and no Swiss chomage, but it is much harder to lose your job in UK. Ok the weather can be shit but not too different to northern Europe / Paris. I would pick London.

ppeatfruit · 05/05/2020 09:43

The other downsides of London [precovid) of course is the crowds and the traffic, the traffic, the traffic, you can't move in it, if you drive of course.

The tubes are not too bad OUT of the rush hours (which seem to join together) The pollution . It's a young person's city but when they start a family most people HAVE to move out because they can't afford even a small house anywhere near the centre of London.

Genevieva · 05/05/2020 22:57

I remember your old posts. You sounds calmer than back then, which is great. I am not surprised you still hanker after moving. Before your husband was adamant that a move was not on the cards, so I would be interested to know if you have broached this seriously recently.

The UK (and most of Europe if not Sweden) is in lockdown. That will ease but exactly how and when remains unknown. At the moment house moves aren't allowed, employers are required to get everyone to work from home unless they are a key worker or can social distance at work. Where that cannot be achieved workers are furloughed. As you can imagine, this means that the job market has hit the floor. The buzzing happy sociable London you left is in aspic and there is no guarantee that it will be like that again in the next year or two. It really isn't a time to be thinking about moving to the UK. Or anywhere I would imagine. I would sit tight, enjoy the relative freedoms you have in Sweden and watch to see what happens in Britain and France.

Almondmilk · 13/05/2020 14:41

Thanks all for your replies, it's been interesting to read them!
@12FreeRangeEggs sometimes I feel like only someone who lived in so many places can understand why I didn't fall in love with Stockholm. Btw today it has snowed and we wear gloves. But besides the weather being extra crappy, it's pretty shallow. Same same same. Nothing unplaned, all very organised, zero surprise.

@12FreeRangeEggs how far from London are you?
I try to be reasonable and keep it quiet because my husband is sick of my potential moving away stories. All my job applications in France have failed so far. So I might have to stick with self-employment which indeed would feel better in the UK! In Sweden I pay 50% taxes, it's crual. Schools are free and healthcare is cheap but everything else is expensive : dentist, hairdresser, restaurants, leisure.

The dream scenario would be to be based just outside London. Easy access to London and to France.

You are right @Genevieva, I can't do much now. I can watch, plan a little and hope the situation gets better. There is no deadline to France but there is def a deadline if we want to move back to London (December this year).

OP posts:
Almondmilk · 13/05/2020 14:42

@Gfplux I can't sell Luxembourg to my husband, he hasn't been there a few times. We both aren't seduced by Luxembourgville or surroundings.

OP posts:
Almondmilk · 13/05/2020 14:45

@LeGrandBleu "the people and the friends you can make." I agree!!
If no friends then at least good weather....We have made acquaintances here in Stockholm but it's not the same type of friends we had in London.

OP posts:
Gfplux · 13/05/2020 15:37

@Almondmilk
I assume you mean you husband has been a few times to Luxembourg.
So sorry he was not seduced by the country. Don’t worry I was probably breaking some code by mentioning Luxembourg as many here want to keep it secret.
Do let us all know what you finally decide as there are many in your situation. However Luxembourg is our forever country.

Almondmilk · 13/05/2020 20:25

@Gfplux I meant he has been there yes.
Sorry I didnt mean that Luxembourg is bad. People I have met there were very friendly! Nature seems nice and the airport is my favourite in the world! Arts and music are very well picked.
Ok now some negative so you don't get the secret out: the language, although everyone is great at speaking English and/or French. The poshness (but maybe I didn't hang out in the right spots! Ok that's it, maybe I can't explain why we didn't fall for Luxembourg. Might just be the language!

OP posts: