Being dismissed for gross misconduct based on nasty gossip

[Vossisdoss]

Someone I used to work with, who has now moved to another department in the same company called me yesterday to say that she has been suspended, and they are investigating her for gross misconduct with a view to dismissing her.

She is being accused of taking annual leave and not logging it onto the system and also exploiting sick leave, by taking time off when she’s not sick. It looks like all of her colleagues have ganged up on her to support this. She said she can prove she logged onto the computer when they are saying she was on holiday (but they are saying she could have done this from Spain) and her sick leave doesn’t look too awful. She was signed off by her doctor for three weeks after surgery, and there’s been the odd self certified day here and there. Apparently she was seen shopping and in her garden when she was recovering from surgery, and this is what has triggered this.

She’s worked there for twenty years and is so worried that she is going to lose her job. The hearing is next week, and she said that her colleagues have essentially thrown her under a bus - eg saying she came back from her surgery with “a Mediterranean tan” and “didn’t look sick”.

She contacted me as I used to be a union rep. I’ve told her to contact her rep ASAP before the hearing. But can they do this when there is no proof?

It’s only a risk if they haven’t followed procedures, or failed to demonstrate that the misconduct actually happened.It’s not a given that such a dismissal would be found to be unfair at tribunal

Actually the risk of a tribunal in itself is a challenge for many employers.

It's very costly to defend. Legal costs will start at £20-30k for something straightforward and rise from there.

And it will consume many stressful hours of staff time.

For big employers that's no big deal and the won't care.

But SMEs will and won't want to risk the financial and resources costs.

knowledge gap on my part, but can they?

under 2 years yeah they don’t have to have a reason and can treat you unfairly?

but don’t they have to have a reason and due process over 2 years?

my husband was being bullied by his line manager and they got hr to offer him an offer to pay him off to leave. But HR made it clear it was a choice for him and he wasn’t forced to. He managed to get another role in the company. But I spoke to an employment lawyer and because he was under 2 years he said they can do whatever but after that 2 years it gets a lot more difficult. Dh was 1 yr 10 months and the manager had been trying and trying to force him out, so the lawyer was saying that basically this was her last chance and then it would become very difficult for her.
this was a big company though, multi billion, and he said the good thing there is that the big big companies will have an iron clad process and will follow it regardless of length of service

@Terrifiedofthedentist

As of now, if you've got fewer than two years service then they can for most practical purposes dismiss at will. There are some protections around things like whistleblowing and protected characteristics which might help for some people.

If they've sacked you after two years you're on stronger ground. Even then though if the employer doesn't care and will take their chances with the employee trying to enforce their rights then you're out the door.

There are processes and codes of conduct which should be followed but even then the employer is largely in the driving seat. A good one will go through proper process but if they want to 'manage you out' they probably will. A good one though will equally recognise that sometimes people are square pegs in round holes or that, contrary to what some assert, personality clashes are a real thing, and will redeploy staff.

Wow this sounds like a classic civil service situation lol

They should have provided her with the evidence with her disciplinary invite, so she can counter it and provide evidence against it. They have to allow her access to the IT system to do this- supervised yes, but if she isn’t given the chance to collate her evidence it would be seen as unfair. The fact they have suspended her suggests they expect it to end with her dismissal. Needs to get her ducks in a row and the union involved for sure. She could also counter it with a grievance if she feels it’s unfounded and a witch hunt.

I work in HR. If there’s no hard evidence, it didn’t happen.

Unfortunately, because there has been accusations, the company are forced to begin an investigation.
That doesn't necessarily mean anything negative, it’s a process that they have to follow through with-the aim is to simply find out the truth-whatever that may be.
Now, as for the sick leave-obviously I can’t speak for the self certified days-but being signed off for surgery does not prevent you from going out. It’s a really common misconception. You are perfectly allowed to be out of the house during your recovery from surgery. Same as if you were signed off for mental health. It entirely depends on why you were signed off.
Being signed off by a Dr does not mean you have to remain tied to the house for the duration. The Dr has set her a recovery period in which he has decided she is not fit to work. The only time it should raise eyebrows or questions is if you are signed off with something that leaves you bedbound or hospitalised, and you’re seen out and about-both the employee and the dr would have doubt cast over them.

But you say you used to be a rep, you should know all this. She’s perfectly within her rights to leave the house when signed off to recover from surgery. They cannot sack her for this-a tribunal would be all over it in a heartbeat

Spain specifically? I’ve only been to the canaries (but still spain), France and Greece and since brexit and had it stamped for all of them. I guess an absence of a stamp isn’t proof though.

seems weird that the colleagues think they can pinpoint that this person had a tan from the Mediterranean 😆

They don’t have to give official warnings if it’s gross misconduct. You can be dismissed on the spot if necessary.

I thought the same thing to be honest. I worked as a civil servant for a while and the level of vitriol among colleagues was off the scale.

I think she is perfectly entitled to go away after surgery as part of the recuperating process. Sounds like there are underlying things going on.

Doesn’t the medical certificate trump everything though? I thought a company had a right to send an employee off to their own medical practitioner, but that would have had to be done when she was off sick, not after the fact….

Her passport might show if she's been abroad. Might be worth taking that along to prove she hasn't been off on a jolly at least.

Hi op,

no they can’t. 20years in means that she is protected. They should bring the proof and not just that she was in her garden or shopping, but that it was counter indicated by the doctor.

Otherwise. In her time off. Sick or not. She can do as she pleases.
About her going in holidays instead of work...well, if she did she is now in trouble because her contract probably doesn’t allow that but if the work was still done...then why would they fire her?

People are nasty, aren’t they? Either there is more to it or it is a case that she is scapegoat and she will just be given a way out for all the others to be satisfied. Awful.

20 years service does not protect anyone from the consequences of gross misconduct.
That’s simply not how it works.

Yeap. She should refute until she sees the evidence. If the evidence isn’t a photo if her in Spain posted on Facebook (or tagged)...then nope.

she also should tell them about the stress it all beings to her after 20years of services...

Erm...yes it does.

they need to bring proof so if you haven’t done nothing, they can’t do nothing to you.

before 2 years they can fire you for no reason. At all. No proof or disagreement even. Just fired.

that is a BIG difference.

Proven misconduct is grounds for instant dismissal. For everyone.
Naturally it needs to be investigated first, which is exactly what the company in question are doing.
Nobody is “protected”.

if you haven’t done nothing, they can’t do nothing to you
Er, quite 😂.

Equal protection for all who haven’t done nothing, as you’d expect.

My passport has been stamped on my way in, and in my way out of Spain every time I've been this year, and I've been several times.

Where you getting your info from?!

Have we cleared up the passport stamping issue yet?

It's hardly got a mention on this thread.

😳

No, I thought they didn't stamp passports for Spain?

😉

Has she been accused of gross misconduct or has she been suspended pending investigation of allegations which may amount to gross misconduct? These are two
different things and the latter is standard process. If she has done the things she’s being investigated for and the investigation finds that she has then she would be invited to a disciplinary hearing and the outcome could be dismissal for gross misconduct. If the investigation finds that she hasn’t done these things then it will be concluded at that point without going to disciplinary hearing.

So basically you say the same thing than me but enjoy posting u don’t for the sake of it...
I will leave you to it 🌺

Good evening.

If you’re WFH, as long as you’re doing your job does it matter actually WHERE you do it?

And if you have a doctors nurse for 3 weeks post op then surely the employer doesn’t have a leg to stand on?

Theres got to be more we don’t know about?