Being dismissed for gross misconduct based on nasty gossip

[Vossisdoss]

Someone I used to work with, who has now moved to another department in the same company called me yesterday to say that she has been suspended, and they are investigating her for gross misconduct with a view to dismissing her.

She is being accused of taking annual leave and not logging it onto the system and also exploiting sick leave, by taking time off when she’s not sick. It looks like all of her colleagues have ganged up on her to support this. She said she can prove she logged onto the computer when they are saying she was on holiday (but they are saying she could have done this from Spain) and her sick leave doesn’t look too awful. She was signed off by her doctor for three weeks after surgery, and there’s been the odd self certified day here and there. Apparently she was seen shopping and in her garden when she was recovering from surgery, and this is what has triggered this.

She’s worked there for twenty years and is so worried that she is going to lose her job. The hearing is next week, and she said that her colleagues have essentially thrown her under a bus - eg saying she came back from her surgery with “a Mediterranean tan” and “didn’t look sick”.

She contacted me as I used to be a union rep. I’ve told her to contact her rep ASAP before the hearing. But can they do this when there is no proof?

There has to be more to it. If she's telling the truth she's better saying less and letting them 'prove' she was doing as they say

She needs representation. If she has worked there 20 years, they will need proof of serious misconduct, not just some bitching from colleagues. Could it be she hadsn't given you the total story?

They stamp your passport now when you go to Spain. Her passport will be proof she’s hasn’t been anywhere.

The access/login times, locations and even device details can all be proven - this will be in her favour if they try to call her out.

They do stamp your passport. I'm just back from a Spanish country & had my passport stamped both entering and leaving the country.

I've been abroad twice this year, after a long break due to caring for my late husband. Both times my passport was stamped.

1. when someone is on sick leave, its absolutely no ones business how or where they spend their recovery time.
2. if someone has logged on their work laptop whilst in a different country the IT technician can see where the IP address is from - so if she has done this whilst claiming to be working from home thats grounds for dismissal.

Yes they do, I've just returned from holiday and mine was stamped

You work in competent HR then.
in my experience, there was incompetence throughout (not mine.) Hence my winning a hefty settlement.

You don't "win" a settlement, you negotiate it. Many employers settle just to avoid defence costs which can run to tens of thousands of pounds. It doesn't mean you would have won any case. It depends on the employer.

Thank you !

I did win the case…..

If you won the case you were awarded a payment. A settlement means the case wasn't heard.

They do since Brexit I've always had it stamped going to france and greece.

Do they stamp passports though?

Exactly this. I was out for 3 months on medical leave recovering from heart surgery. Part of my recovery was walking to improve stamina, walking to therapy, working my way up to being well enough to go back to work.

If my coworkers had seen me at the grocery or pharmacy & reported me for abusing sick leave, they'd be dead wrong. I had the full 3 months approved and needed every bit of it.

She had the time signed off by a doctor and it was accepted by her employer. Do her coworkers think the doctor was fake or was lying?

"Someone I used to work with" 🙄

My husband regularly travels to Germany and the Netherlands and his passport is stamped every time

I know of a someone recently that was forced out of a position after over 30 years. He was a caretaker of a school. Well respected by both parents, teachers and pupils. It was the senior management that caused his downfall and it was well known in the community that he was being forced out. He was even accused of a fire when he wasn't even on the premises. Yet, same academy, (trust) kept a senior head in place. Although moved schools, after she was proved to of lied on a legal statement regarding said caretaker. The lack of respect towards said trust is now very lacking within the community and amongst parents. Companies have a right to investigate allegations but unfortunately the process isn't always just.

@MaryVeryContrary63 The advent of Academy schools and forcing large parts of the system into them is a scandal waiting to be exposed.

Carp HR practices as here is one part. Fraud and attempts to asset strip schools for private benefit is a biggy too.

Yes they do since Brexit.

Please please stop posting about the passport stamp. It's so annoying.

If you are signed off as Unfit to Work you can do what the heck you like (other than working). If you want to take a mini-break or go shopping you can. You're unfit to WORK not to exist! I've had two extended periods of being Unfit to Work. During one I redecorated the whole downstairs of my house. Both saw me going shopping or on Day Trips.

If work are accusing her of Gross Misconduct they have to show that her Unfit To Work document from her Doctor is a forgery.

So, OP, to summarise what you say your friend has told you, there are two "allegations" against her:

1. She is being accused of taking annual leave and not logging it onto the system;
2. She has taken time off sick from work when she's not actually sick.

Both of these acts could be grounds for dismissal gross misconduct, but her employer would need clear evidence of these acts (which they should share with her at her first disciplinary meeting next week).

Here's a useful link for an overview of how to deal with a disciplinary: www.citizensadvice.org.uk/work/disciplinary-meetings/dealing-with-disciplinary-action-and-dismissal-at-work/

Your friend seems to be assuming her 3 weeks post-surgery sick leave, supported by her GP's fit note, is involved in this disciplinary. I don't think it is at all (unless her employer's HR dept is extremely poor) - I think that's a complete red herring. How she spends sick leave which is supported by a GP's fit note is entirely her business and her employer would leave themselves open to a tribunal claim for unfair dismissal if they tried to use this as grounds for dismissal.

Your friend needs to stay calm and do the following:

• Contact her Union rep' to see if they can accompany her to the disciplinary meeting next week;
• Look up on her employer's intranet (assuming she still has access to it) or ask her HR dept for a copy of their disciplinary procedure (which will enable her to check they follow their own/the correct process) and their grievance procedure (if the allegations against her do turn out to be malicious/without foundation she should raise a grievance);
• If her employer doesn't have a disciplinary procedure they should, as a minimum, be following ACAS' code of practice which she can view here: https://www.acas.org.uk/acas-code-of-practice-on-disciplinary-and-grievance-procedures
• Attend the meeting, pay attention to the detail of the allegations (make notes if she's able), ask for copies of the evidence the employer is relying on and answer their allegations openly and honestly (providing her own evidence to refute their allegations if she has it).
• If her employer finds against her and dismisses her, she has the right of appeal for another, more senior, manager to hear her appeal (the steps in a disciplinary are time-bound, for employer and employee, which is why it's important she has a copy of the procedure the employer is following).
• She can also raise a grievance - even after she's been dismissed - which has to be heard in line with the employer's grievance procedure (or ACAS code of practice).
• Ultimately, if she is dismissed, she should get advice on whether her dismissal is fair to see if she can take a claim to the Employment Tribunal (note: "fair" is about a dismissal being legally fair, not whether it feels fair in the wider sense). There are a number of ways a dismissal can be legally unfair (including the employer not following a correct process) which are complex, which is why she should take formal advice from, for example, Citizens Advice in the first instance.

I hope this helps. I also hope your friend has been entirely honest with you about the circumstances surrounding this disciplinary.

Ten pages, and OP has only posted once (2 days ago). Is it worth continuing to give advice?