Being dismissed for gross misconduct based on nasty gossip

[Vossisdoss]

Someone I used to work with, who has now moved to another department in the same company called me yesterday to say that she has been suspended, and they are investigating her for gross misconduct with a view to dismissing her.

She is being accused of taking annual leave and not logging it onto the system and also exploiting sick leave, by taking time off when she’s not sick. It looks like all of her colleagues have ganged up on her to support this. She said she can prove she logged onto the computer when they are saying she was on holiday (but they are saying she could have done this from Spain) and her sick leave doesn’t look too awful. She was signed off by her doctor for three weeks after surgery, and there’s been the odd self certified day here and there. Apparently she was seen shopping and in her garden when she was recovering from surgery, and this is what has triggered this.

She’s worked there for twenty years and is so worried that she is going to lose her job. The hearing is next week, and she said that her colleagues have essentially thrown her under a bus - eg saying she came back from her surgery with “a Mediterranean tan” and “didn’t look sick”.

She contacted me as I used to be a union rep. I’ve told her to contact her rep ASAP before the hearing. But can they do this when there is no proof?

No it’s not! It’s not her business.

I am another who was signed off for 4 months with work related stress who went on holiday. Pre planned from before the sign off, work even refunded my A/L that I had booked.

Sick leave ≠ too ill to go on holiday.

Im about to take another 6 weeks of planned sick leave-I’m about to have my leg broken and re set (funnily enough at the hospital I work at!). There is absolutely an expectation that I get up and mobilise to avoid DVT, but I won’t be going to work as I’ll need to elevate regularly.

Some of this is just bloody ridiculous. Your job don’t own you, you’re not a fucking indentured slave, again I’d be putting in a report about your colleagues spying on you in your garden, creepy behaviour if you’ve just had surgery. I remember when people used to send a fucking card when you’d had surgery.

If she didn't go to Spain, then she's fine surely? There is really only an issue if she did go as her workplace can argue that she was fit for work. Did she say why she was unfit for work e.g. if she had unnecessary cosmetic surgery and it should have been carried out during her annual leave?

The 'being seen in her garden' is strange. What industry does she work for? Could it be that they hired a private investigator? I have known that to happen but it sounds extreme when there wasn't an ongoing absence issue with an employee.

Your friend should do up her CV. Her workplace will be intolerable if she does return but it is important that her name is cleared.

She can buy herself time at the end of her hearing and when she is due to go back to work, by going to her GP and requesting for time off due to the stress caused by this bullying.

Because not being fit to work is not the same as not being fit to go on holiday. You have an awful lot more control over how much and what you do on holiday than you do at work.

If you were signed off sick with stress, it might do you good as part of your recovery to go on holiday to try to relax and recouperate.

If you were signed off with depression, your family might take you in order to try to get you out and about and recover.

etc

it would depend on what she was signed off -with.

for example if mental health the doctors would be saying to go out and socialise etc. It's very thin grounds to sack someone for time off sick etc so unless there is more that she not saying.

If it's as straightforward as what's she has said then she stands a good chance of winning a tribunal against them.

I was reading that there's two seperate issues. Unauthorised holiday leave and exploiting sick leave. I can't imagine anywhere would be stupid enough to go after sick leave if someone has a note.

She is not being dismissed due to gossip. Someone in the company has looked at the complaint and started an investigation. It may well vindicate her or there be no clear cut evidence of wrongdoing, but it seems unlikely they would bother without something else suspicious going on. I doubt she would be suspended in the meantime otherwise.

my sister on sik leave is gouing on holiday it was alreay booke and she also booke annual leave im sure is not against rules

The belief that a note is always sufficient isn't correct. The fact that many companies send employees to company doctors is testament to that.

It could well be an inexperienced manager. Some companies don't even have a HR dept. Your friend could get quite the payout if she claims for unfair dismissal. Tell her to document everything so she can use it herself at a later date.

All managers are obliged to investigate alleged misconduct.
Nobody has been dismissed, unfairly or otherwise.

Yes they do. It’s one of the many benefits of Brexit 🙄

I was quite clearly referring to the possible outcome of the hearing.

There is a massive difference between an internal investigation and immediate suspension.

Well, it wasn’t that clear, really.
She may not be dismissed, and if she is, it’s not a given that it would be found to be unfair 🤷🏻‍♀️

'They do stamp passports now' is becoming the new 'cancel the cheque'!

I know of someone who had only been in her job a few months, she went off sick and then posted pictures on social media of her and the kids at Disneyworld. She was dismissed.

Because, this is employment as opposed to criminal law. Employment law, they need to follow a process to dismiss someone. Evidence is not the questions, it’s balance of probability and process.

I've no argument with that.

If, on balance of probability, the employee in the OP has mucked the system then misconduct, gross or otherwise, could be proven.

Last saw the thread six pages ago and this comment is still coming up every 10th post 😂

No they don't. They can sack anyone at any point for any reason.

They are at risk of an employment tribunal which can result in a settlement if they are found to have not followed the process, but it doesn't stop them doing it. Many employers will take the risk if they think it is worth it.

Absolutely.

So many on MN seem to believe that sick notes, unions or some other mechanism can somehow stop an employee being fired.

An employer can sack you for whatever they like, at any time they like, and no one is going to stop that, especially if the employer is not concerned about possible consequences.

Inside a few months, she was likely on probation. She would have had less safeguards than somebody with 20 years employment under their belt would.

'@AllyCart · Today 10:17

Absolutely.
So many on MN seem to believe that sick notes, unions or some other mechanism can somehow stop an employee being fired.
An employer can sack you for whatever they like, at any time they like, and no one is going to stop that, especially if the employer is not concerned about possible consequences.'

Technically, yes they can.

But then they are at risk of an employment tribunal and being made to pay compensation to the employee...

It’s only a risk if they haven’t followed procedures, or failed to demonstrate that the misconduct actually happened.
It’s not a given that such a dismissal would be found to be unfair at tribunal.

By the time any tribunal goes to court everyone has moved on. Compensation is usually irrelevant by that point. And that's if you can afford to get legal representation or can cope with the stress of it all.

People need to stop saying 'they can't do that' when they obviously can.