Being dismissed for gross misconduct based on nasty gossip

[Vossisdoss]

Someone I used to work with, who has now moved to another department in the same company called me yesterday to say that she has been suspended, and they are investigating her for gross misconduct with a view to dismissing her.

She is being accused of taking annual leave and not logging it onto the system and also exploiting sick leave, by taking time off when she’s not sick. It looks like all of her colleagues have ganged up on her to support this. She said she can prove she logged onto the computer when they are saying she was on holiday (but they are saying she could have done this from Spain) and her sick leave doesn’t look too awful. She was signed off by her doctor for three weeks after surgery, and there’s been the odd self certified day here and there. Apparently she was seen shopping and in her garden when she was recovering from surgery, and this is what has triggered this.

She’s worked there for twenty years and is so worried that she is going to lose her job. The hearing is next week, and she said that her colleagues have essentially thrown her under a bus - eg saying she came back from her surgery with “a Mediterranean tan” and “didn’t look sick”.

She contacted me as I used to be a union rep. I’ve told her to contact her rep ASAP before the hearing. But can they do this when there is no proof?

"working from home" from somewhere other than your normal place of residence wouldn't usually be a problem if the full normal workload is achieved. It would only be an issue if she was slacking off and not actually getting the job done."

It depends, a lot of companies do not allow working from other locations or might have something in a handbook etc that says permission must be sought if someone wants to.

Er they do (brexit). I have got stamps from Spain, France and Gibraltar this year alone

Fucking hell 🤦‍♀️

any reasonable manager would tell the accusers to fuck right off and mind their own business, not launch a disciplinary process.

I agree, which is why I think it's possible that we/the OP don't have the full story.

I wish I had!

ha sorry! I was very keen to be right and didn't RTFT, then did 😮

Having 3 weeks off after surgery isn't something she could be dismissed for.
She needs to get a union rep ASAP. Organisations have a duty of care to their employees and are bound by employment legislation

Are they saying she took annual leave and went abroad without actually logging that she was on annual leave on the system. So was declaring that she was working as normal but they think that she wasn’t? That’s a bit unclear in the op.

Allegations have been raised and she's been suspended whilst an investigation takes place. Suspension is a normal precaution so as to remove the possibility of interference in the investigative process.

If, once the employer's investigation is complete, there is evidence of misconduct then the evidence will be put to the employee and they will have the opportunity to answer it. There may be a disciplinary hearing.

Only then might a sanction be imposed.

To be honest being in the garden or even the Med while signed off is not an offence. OTOH if one is signed off with knackety knees such that one cannot travel to work and then are seen to have run a Marathon gross misconduct might be stood up.

Previous employer of mine accused somebody of abusing sick because she was seen out shopping and dismissed her. It cost their insurer dearly.....

The cynical take home is that being drunk or fiddling the books is the least identifiable (silently accepted?) way to dodge work requirements. Sick leave is the least optimal way because it is easier to track and isolate.

Another take away is that as a culture we are unsympathetic towards designated recovery time.

I’ve told her to consult her current TU rep and get them to accompany her to the meeting, and to be completely honest with them

You've done the right thing, OP
FWIW I'm another who doubts you've got the whole story, but she and they will and it's best left between them

DP 'Went on holiday to the seaside' in the eyes of his employer to stay with his Dad for three weeks.

Somebody had to do suicide watch whilst I was doing two jobs and bank work on the weekends to cover the bills.

Their attempt to fire him failed.

A few years ago the doctor in my HR department (NHS) told me to get signed off, due to a severe skin complaint I had. I couldn’t even wear a uniform as that exacerbated my condition. The doctor actually told me the best thing I could do is go on holiday to somewhere hot and failing that I should get out as often as possible in the sun. When I said that there would be a huge row if I did that, he said if anyone at my work wasn’t happy with this, I should tell them to get in touch with him, as the reason I was off was for my protection to prevent me contracting any infections (particularly MRSA) present on my hospital ward.

I didn't go on holiday but, as the weather was really nice, I did go out and about. My line manager saw me on the golf course and then got in touch with me, asking why I was still off when I was fit to carry on with normal activities. I said to her that HR had recommended this and to get in touch with them. She did get in touch with them, but was told I was following recommendations. I was told she was really pissed off, but she didn’t get in touch with me again.

Being signed off does not mean you have to stay in the house all the time.

It's been put back again.

Not that I was owed an explanation at all, but thank you for setting me straight (genuinely). I live and I learn. I hope you're feeling better and I will remember this before judging. (Also nod to @BrightYellowDaffodil who said a similar thing).

I would say:

• Your friend as a fit note to cover her 3 week sick leave and there is nothing they can do to challenge that. A medical professional has signed her off and they know better than a manager...
• Same with short term sickness: you can self-certify for the first seven days of an illness then you would need a fit note from a health care professional if the illness lasts longer than that.

As for being seen outside while on sick leave:

• I had abdominal surgery and needed about two months of sick leave to recover. Once the stitches and staples were off, the consultant wanted me to start walking. So I started walking around the house first, then outside my front door, then to the nearest shop, then the local park and so on. Basically it was part of my recovery during my sick leave to slowly become more and more mobile. I did not stay chained to my bed for 2 months...
• I once a director who had a long term mental health condition (bipolar) who was off sick but went on a planned holiday abroad. Again this was allowed because it would help with his depression.

Unless your friend has left some of the background story out, the employer is in the wrong.

However I would say that if her colleagues are plotting agains her and the employer was so quickly to suspend her without any proof, it definitely is a sign that long term she needs to find a new job as it sounds like a toxic workplace.

Tell her to take her passport with her and ask them to show her where the stamps are for entry and exit to the country she allegedly went on holiday to. This evidence disproves the allegation I think.

@Loub1987 if they've already got the evidence why would they suspend her before putting the 'charges' to her.

Suspension on full pay is not a punishment but rather a rational response. It gets the employee against whom allegations are made off site and off corporate IT. The possibility of them interfering with evidence, or of others asserting such interference, is removed.

The danger is where the employee is suspended and then left swinging for weeks or months. A properly resourced investigation should, in at least the majority of cases, take days.

If somebody is suspended pending investigations their colleagues should be told of their suspension and that suspension does not imply guilt. They should also be told, forcibly if necessary, that discussion and pursuit of 'no smoke without fire' theories might in themselves be misconduct warranting suspension.

Yes they do, since Brexit. I’m getting some lovely Spanish stamps.

I was signed off after a full hysterectomy big surgical scar ( laproscopic not possible) told by the hospital to go out walking 20 mins on day 4 at home up to an hr a day at day 7 to help my recovery I was everywhere all over our town while I was signed off shopping in the library in cafes. I could hardly have done that amount of walking round my living room. Being signed off doesn’t mean chained to the bed.

Haven’t got much advice but I would definitely get legal advice- maybe citizens advice. This happened to a friend of mine and they rely on you giving up or being so scared of losing your job they offer you a demotion and you take it. Obviously there maybe more to this but work place’s absolutely do do this to staff and if for whatever reason they want someone gone they can and do encourage ‘whistleblowing’ to help their case
Good luck to your friend

This whole thing sounds like a manager who is not managing robustly but gets swayed by the most aggressive staff members. Your friend might be happy to leave if that is the case

Fairly obviously, there's an expectation that over the three month period the person concerned will gradually get better. No-one would seriously expect them to be confined to their bed for three months and then go back to work. It would be perfectly reasonable to expect someone to be able to cope with travelling, particularly if they had someone with them to carry luggage etc, and indeed it could make quite a lot of sense for them to take that chance of relaxation to cement their recovery.

Chances are she could quite easily prove that she didn’t go on the Spain holiday, however the company don’t really need to prove anything, they just need reasonable belief that the most serious of their allegations are true and could very well dismiss your friend. She could of course appeal and if what she’s saying is true then she definitely should regardless of what sanction she gets as if she’s done nothing at all wrong then there’s no need for any sanction and she could be able to reasonably raise a grievance or resign and claim for constructive dismissal of her colleagues really have hanged up on her like that and she doesn’t feel she can return to that workplace?

I do these type of investing. I think your friend has not told all the truth. A business who fires someone on "gossip" opens themselves to lawsuits. Also it takes a ton of red tape and documentation to get this far. Chances of your friend being innocent here are very slim.