Can visiting your child be harassment without a court order restriction

[merryeagle]

Given the following court order:

"The Court makes no order for contact between the Applicant and the
subject children however the Respondent’s clear evidence was that she supported contact between the Applicant and the children as long as the children were not forced to attend such contact as such the court requests and suggests that the Respondent encourages the children to have contact."

My children have been alienated against me and are refusing to have contact with me. So I had to go to court.

Would I be in breach of a court order if I were to visit my children's school unannounced, without forcing them to speak to me?

It is my understanding that "No order" means there is no restrictions on me.

How do you interpret the above court order in terms of what contact I can have with my children?

Does it say that the resident parent is supporting contact? Courts prefer it if parents can sort it out themselves so unless there's some other reason that contact shouldn't happen I don't see why it isn't, particularly as the ex apparently has no issue with it? Can you say what you mean by you've been alienated?
In theory or doesn't sound like there's any reason why you can't show up unless like I said there is some sort of order or reason you shouldn't, or unless your children would be upset by you showing up.
I do understand that this must be frustrating for you, but I'd consider a family member who they do see or a mutual friend who has some form of contact with them to pave the way to you seeing them.
Is there anyone?
Or write to them. How old are they?

The resident parent is supporting contact and claims to actively encourage contact but that the children (14,16 now) are refusing contact.

This has been a case of parental alienation, CAFCASS recognised that there was parental alienation and that the children have adopted the resident parent's negative views of the absent parent. The children exhibit behaviours typically associated with alienated children, such as:

• Reject by association. Entire family of absent parent is rejected.
• The children's opinion of resident parent is unjustifiably one sided, all good or all bad; idealises resident parent and devalues the absent parent.
• Revises history to eliminate or diminish the positive memories of the previously beneficial experiences with the rejected parent.

The resident parent seems to have conflicting position, on one hand encouraging contact but on another holding negative views of the absent father.

In spite of this, the court still allowed the resident parent to relocate to another city with the children, without any reasonable reason like (new job, new partner etc). This relocation only served to further alienate the absent parent.

The children's expressed wishes and feelings were that they do not want to have contact with the absent parent. Unfortunately the court failed to recognise the difficulty in ascertaining the wishes and feelings of alienated children.

The absent parent again went to the court after relocation as the resident parent still was unable to encourage contact. The court dismissed the application.

Unbeknownst to the absent parent, it turned out the resident parent made false allegations and harassment complaint soon after learning that absent parent started court proceedings again.

The absent parent failed to mention going to the police in her statements or in the hearing.

Two months after the last hearing, The absent parent was arrested for harassment for visiting the children's school more than once, before the last hearing. As an "unwanted visit" can be considered harassment, however not sure if this extends to a rejected parent trying to rebuild their relationship with their children.

The police claim that the rejected parent has breached the court order, however this is questionable given that the court order places no restrictions on contact.

The rejected parent even had a hearing were these visits were discussed and the court didn't consider it a breach nor felt the need to put a prohibited steps order.

Please don’t drag school into this.

It sounds like you’re going to try and ambush your reluctant children after school and attempt to publicly embarrass them into complying with your wish for contact.
I doubt it’s going to get you what you want in the longer term. They’re more likely to try harder to avoid you than they were before.

They're 16 & 14, not little kids. Regardless of what might have influenced their opinions, they're old enough to know what they want. If they have told you they do not want contact, and you are repeatedly turning up at their school, that is harassment.

How would you feel if someone you had asked not to contact you kept coming to your place of work?

I agree with *Smartiepants79 *OP, I'm all likelihood all you are doing by turning up at school is reinforcing the negative things their mum has said about you and alienating DC further. I would send regular letters for now, nothing heavy or emotional just stuff about what you're up to, their interests etc. You may get no response for a while, or at all, but they're old enough to start seeing through lies if what you're showing them doesn't tally with what they're being told about you.

I went to the school 3 times. Each time to give them a letter, and only if they approached me. I wanted to try a neutral venue, to see if they wanted contact. I stopped going once they made it clear they still didn't want to have contact.

They did not approach me, nor did I approach them or interact with them. They walked past me and that was the end of it.

In any case, my original question was whether I have breached a court order? In the hearing my visits were discussed and how it made the children feel but it was not considered a breach of a court order, as there is no order with regards to contact.

I disagree, they are still considered children under the Children's Act. It is the court's duty to safeguard a child's welfare and best interest. However it must consider the child's expressed wishes and feelings in light of their age and understanding.

How do you ascertain the wishes and feelings of an alienated child?

No where above does it say you are not to contact your children

Look I know it must be painful but take a step back. You have tried and it hasn’t worked- nothing good is going to come of your persistence

Going to their school is selfish and desperate

No I am not going to visit the school anymore. That was the end of it.

The fact is the older the child the more chance the judge grants them their preference

Even if you have been alienated there’s not much you can do about it except hope that when they are adults they reach out

I don't think it's a breech of the court order. However, I think it was poorly thought out. Your kids don't want to see you. They are old enough to chose for themselves. If you want to write them a letter. Then write it and post it. Send them their birthday gifts. Send them a good luck on your first day at school card, school pens ect. Don't turn up suprise them, embarrass them and make a scene at school. Presumably at their ages they have mobiles and the means to contact you if they choose to.

Ime bide your time. My dc saw their df for the narcissist twat in time. At 12 and 14 they went nc with him. Take the time until then to look after your own mental wellbeing.. Ime it won't be great. Nurture you until they come back into your life....

What leads you to believe they are alienated?

It's only your opinion that the children have been alienated. At 14 and 16 they are both old enough to make up their own minds. It's quite usual for ex partners to have a negative view of each other but I don't know any divorced women who have turned their children against their father out of spite. In fact, they have encouraged their children to see their dads even when he's been pretty unreliable. Going to the children's school when they have made it clear they don't want to see you could indeed be seen as harassment. I think you have no choice but to leave them alone now and hope that they will change their minds at some point in the future.

Your post isn't clear, who assessed them as being alienated CAFCASS or you?

You may not be in breach of the order but you're also not in the spirit of it, because it gives a reason for not ordering contact as to not force contact. Teenagers are old enough to make their own decisions. Turning up at their school uninvited three times must've been absolutely mortifying for them.

Harassment is a criminal offence and those allegations are separate to the court order, which was made by the family court, not the criminal court and gives you no right to contact unless they want it.

It is not my opinion. It is CAFCASS's opinion.

CAFCASS concluded that the children have been alienated against the absent parent.

At 16 and 14 they can make this decision and their views should be respected. (And will be respected by everyone else)

Forcing it will not bring them round. Or
Improve anything.

Do you think CAFCASS are never wrong? Do you not think that there are many abusive controlling ex husbands who accuse the mothers of parental alienation when their children don't want to see them? If a 14 year old and a 16 year old don't want to see the absent parent, the absent parent should leave them alone, not stalk them at their school.

Whatever else you do never do anything that might be used against you.

My ex left a trail of devastation - all recorded and beyond doubt.

I never did anything that could be used against me

You have not breached (this particular part of) the order but what you did is harassment. They’ve told you they don’t want contact with you, and you go and stand outside their school several times. This is very strange behaviour and will have done you no favours whatsoever. If they decide to apply for a non molestation order, this will likely go against you. Is this the only time you’ve made a serious error of judgement?

What were the events leading up to it? How long has it been since you've properly had contact with them? Do you know their reasons for not wanting to see you?

As others have said, send letters & presents but definitely don't try to see them in person.

I don't think this was an error in judgement, I was within my right to attempt to have contact with my children.

Yes I was aware that they didn't want to have contact, they have communicated this to the court and the professionals involved in the case. However the court made no order, and I was free to attempt to establish contact.

I stopped going to the school once they have asked the school for me not to visit. The resident parent is expected to encourage contact despite the children's views.

So it is my view, that I was within my rights to attempt contact but not force contact. I did not approach them, talk to them or make a scene, I simply made myself available and left it up to them to approach me.

In short, my ex and I were separated for 6 years and managed to co-parent amicably. One week after I remarried, the resident parent informed me that the children do not want to see me any more. I then went to the court, then the resident parent applied for a non-molestation order, which was dismissed.

Initial observation by CAFCASS when the children were 11 and 13:

"During direct work with the children it was felt that their responses were quite ‘adult like’ and almost scripted. Immediately both children told me that they didn’t want to see absent parent and absent parent's family. This is aside from the fact that I have seen text communication between the children and the absent parent as recent as last month, where the relationship seems positive and the communication is good. It was as if the children were nervous and wanted to get out their views, maybe they thought they would otherwise forget."