Can visiting your child be harassment without a court order restriction

[merryeagle]

Given the following court order:

"The Court makes no order for contact between the Applicant and the
subject children however the Respondent’s clear evidence was that she supported contact between the Applicant and the children as long as the children were not forced to attend such contact as such the court requests and suggests that the Respondent encourages the children to have contact."

My children have been alienated against me and are refusing to have contact with me. So I had to go to court.

Would I be in breach of a court order if I were to visit my children's school unannounced, without forcing them to speak to me?

It is my understanding that "No order" means there is no restrictions on me.

How do you interpret the above court order in terms of what contact I can have with my children?

@merryeagle What was the children's relationship like with your new wife? What prompted this? Did ex think there might be hope of a reconciliation and your remarriage put paid to that? I really feel for you because it's such an awful thing to happen. Will your ex not communicate with you either? At this point I'd continue to send regular letters but absolutely do not turn up at school again.

In short, my ex and I were separated for 6 years and managed to co-parent amicably. One week after I remarried, the resident parent informed me that the children do not want to see me any more. I then went to the court, then the resident parent applied for a non-molestation order, which was dismissed.

It feels like there is rather a lot of information missing here.

For six years everything was basically fine, presumably your ex was aware you had a new partner and your children had met her. Then all of a sudden everything goes septic with no “incident” other than you getting married (which again was presumably something your ex was aware was going to happen) and your children start flat-out refusing to see or speak to you without communicating why?

There’s no way that’s the whole story.

As unfair as it feels and possibly is (there’s no way we can judge as the whole story will no doubt be much more complicated) you will not win if you carry on focusing on your ‘rights’ and wanting to treat 14 and 16 yo as children. All you can do is play the long game. Send letters/emails. Send gifts. If they play sport/music etc ask permission if you could go and watch them and promise that you will not approach them. Just watch and leave. Show them that you can be trusted.

My cousins were alienated from their parent for years after infidelity when they were young teens. As adults, encouraged by their partners, they rebuilt the relationship. Ultimately even the parents become friends again which is quite remarkable in the circumstances.

I strongly recommend you back off. I was the child in this situation, my father thought my mother had alienated me, in reality I'd grown up enough to realise he was a controlling nightmare. I did reconcile with him about five years later when I was able to have an adult relationship with him on my terms, and with very strict boundaries. We continued to have a good relationship until he died, but it was only possible because I was mature enough to call the shots, if I had been forced to see him as a young teen this wouldn't have happened.

Why is it that your ex has such a negative view of you, @merryeagle ?

Given that you managed to co-parent amicably for six years, is her view of you really so negative that it could be claimed to be a factor in alienating the children?

Perhaps it was not clear. My children never met my new partner, as I have lost contact with my children as soon as a I started a relationship with my new partner.

Ex refuses to have contact with me yet claims to encourage the children to have contact, not exactly setting the example.

I am as perplexed as you are. There is no history of abuse, violence, drugs or alcohol involved.

I am sorry to hear to that. However, it is not just my opinion that the children are alienated, it is that of CAFCASS, who have a pretty robust framework in assessing children resistance to contact. I refer to you their Child Impact Assessment Framework, in particular Alienating Behaviours Thinking tool.

Excerpt from Cafcass:

When asking the resident parent how the children’s views of the absent parent had changed drastically, the resident parent said that the children had seen the court papers as they were lying around and accidentally seen by the children.

This is concerning that the children were able to view the material and further it doesn’t appear that the children were reassured, instead it appears that from this point the children formed a ‘negative’ view of the absent parent.

Can I ask, did your dislike to your father extend to his family as well? Did you feel conflicted, after it is your father who you are upset with?

In my case, my children not only rejected me but my entire family. They sent me pictures of them showing me the middle finger, and were very confrontational and rude. All mentioned in the CAFCASS reports. The didn't appear conflicted and lacked ambivalence.

Yes definitely, I will have to play the long game. At this point it is not about "convincing" the children, as their views are pretty settled, alienated or not.

My goal is for the courts to recognise that these children had been alienated in what was their formative years, and that the effects will be long-lasting. I want to be able to explain to them once we reconcile what has gone on and not just simply take my word for it.

Even if we were to reconcile, they will need a lot of therapy to navigate it all.

Perhaps it was not clear. My children never met my new partner, as I have lost contact with my children as soon as a I started a relationship with my new partner.

So you started a new relationship around three years ago (who you have since married) after six years of co-operative co-parenting and your ex and children all suddenly stopped speaking to you upon learning you had a new girlfriend? Amicable split, no violence, abuse, financial control, cheating etc? No occasionally sleeping with your ex-wife after the split?

My advice remains the same. At 14 and 16, I don't think you are going to gain anything by forcing contact if your children don't want it.

As for me, I had no issues with extended family, but as I was fourteen I didn't see much of them once I refused to see my dad. I didn't really mind, like most teenagers i felt like I had better things to do than hang out with family much. I didn't feel in the least bit conflicted about any of it, and I still don't. I remember being made to see a social worker when I stopped going to see my dad, she tried to talk me into seeing him, but as I was able to clearly articulate exactly why I didn't want to, my wishes were taken into account. And that was forty years ago, I imagine children's preferences are taken even more into account now. I think you have to play the long game, difficult as it is. You are unlikely to prosper butting heads with teenagers who don't want to see you, justified or not.

At 14 and 16 the courts will prioritise the children's views, alienated or not. Even without alienation this is an age at which it is common to turn to friends rather than parents, which makes visiting EOW unattractive.

I think playing the long game in this context is about convincing your children, not the courts. It sounds like you haven't had contact for a very long time so that will be challenging. You seem set on court verdicts rather than the children's feelings. You need to refocus.

I think you're missing the inbetween. It sounds like you're missing out a chunk of the story to fit your narrative. Cafcass get it wrong all the time, lots of younger children are forced to have contact with highly abusive men. Leave them be, send birthday and Christmas cards. Pay decent child maintenance to your ex, not the shockingly low CMS amount. If they approach you in adulthood, do not focus on your ex but on building a healthy relationship.

Sorry to add, as a teen if strangers spoke to me a couple of times and told me I do not know my mind, they know me better I'd be pretty furious. And if you bring up cafcass to the DC in adulthood they may be pretty pissed off. Most teens do not blindly follow what their parents tell them to do.

It seems like you've become fixated on 'winning' the parental alienation thing.

So, just to clarify the timeline:

6 yrs ago, you & ex split amicably

You have 50/50 childcare, a great relationship with your kids and all is well.

Three years ago, when DC are 11&13, you get a new girlfriend.

DC/ex don't take well to new gf, custody goes from 50/50 to zero with you

You choose to continue relationship with gf, rather than prioritise relationship with DC.

1 yr ago you marry - DC happily attend wedding? Aren't involved in wedding at all?

You go to court to try and prove parental alienation.

Is that right?

Yes definitely, I will have to play the long game. At this point it is not about "convincing" the children, as their views are pretty settled, alienated or not

My goal is for the courts to recognise that these children had been alienated in what was their formative years, and that the effects will be long-lasting. I want to be able to explain to them once we reconcile what has gone on and not just simply take my word for it

Even if we were to reconcile, they will need a lot of therapy to navigate it all

So your goal is not to see your kids ( which they don’t want ) or have contact with your kids via mail ( which you already have ).

Your goal is get the courts to make some sort of finding in fact that you can use to prove to others that your ex is wrong and you are right. And that you imagine that in future when you see your adult children, you can use that to prove your rightness.

If that is correct, then it speaks volumes about you.

Can I ask

How often do you write to your children ?

Do you send cards and gifts for Christmas, birthdays, exams, back to school etc?

How do you pay child support ? Is it a family based arrangement or by collect and pay through CMS? How much do you pay in excess of the legal minimum ?

Did you reduce the maintenance for your children once you moved in with your new partner and her / joint children ?

There is always potential for rights and responsibilities to come into conflict with each other.

Your right to see your child, maybe supported by the court other although it was not specific, came into conflict with their right to go about their day without disruption and upset. As parent you also have responsibilities. One of which is not to put your children under unnecessary stress. Rightly or wrongly seeing you put them under enough stress to claim it was harassment.

Whilst there is evidence that their mother is also putting them under stress by alienating them, that isn’t within your control. Crucially it isn’t in their control either.

A 16 year old has the right to decide and to be wrong. You cannot force them into a relationship. The same applies to the 14 year.

There is no legal sophistry that negates that situation.

“The absent parent failed to mention going to the police in her statements or in the hearing”.
So do the children live with their father?

When asking the resident parent how the children’s views of the absent parent had changed drastically, the resident parent said that the children had seen the court papers as they were lying around and accidentally seen by the children.

What did they see in the paperwork if there were no concerning issues at any point either in your relationship, during your breakup, or during the period when 50:50 was working out fine?

So you saw them up til a week after you remarried?

But also they never met your new spouse?

In short, my ex and I were separated for 6 years and managed to co-parent amicably. One week after I remarried, the resident parent informed me that the children do not want to see me any more.

Perhaps it was not clear. My children never met my new partner, as I have lost contact with my children as soon as a I started a relationship with my new partner.

So you didn’t see them in the time you were dating your new spouse and planning the wedding?

I understand what you are saying about alienation. However, what stands out is that you think going to the school was fine because it was your ‘right’. Parents shouldn’t be putting their rights above their children. You made your children uncomfortable and they were bothered. Yet you repeatedly did it.

You think your ex should lead by example and have contact with you when she doesn’t want to. That’s a massive red flag for me.

The fact that you believe the courts should force them to see you and not accepting that, that doesn’t happen at their age. Yet you believe it should because of your ‘rights’.

The court papers that put you off your children seeing you?

I assume what you have posted about the assessment of the children and whether they were alienated is only part of the report?

When someone has told you that they do not want contact with you, and you ignore this and instead go and stand around outside a place where you know they are, this is the definition of harassment. The contact is unwanted and you carry on regardless.

Personally I would feel this is in the same category as stalking. Standing outside their school in these circumstances whether silent or not is disturbing. In addition you will have put them in an incredibly embarrassing situation in front of their friends.

Regardless of your ‘rights’ or any order, it was an error of judgement.

I think it's awful that this happens, but it does & far too often, sadly. Cafcass often make statements & reports but the court either doesn't act on them or are absolutely powerless or too lazy to do anything about it.
I don't doubt that there has been alienation, from what you've said, children of that age are easily influenced.
But let me tell you a personal story, this happened to my DH, his DM absolutely loathed his DD, slated him every day.
When my DH was older he reached out to his DD, on his own terms & got to know him. Children are dependent on the resident parent, it's survival.
Bide your time. Let your ex know you are wanting to see your DC's , don't give up. Write to them asking what they're doing & keep copies, open a bank account for them, in other words keep investing in them even at this time. Consider this temporary.
But I don't see that you've broken an order because there isn't one to break.

I think this person is allowed to move on from their ex
And ex should be mature enough to see that new partner doesn't not mean that ex should not see bother parents as before. I'd think it was positive that ex has new partner, it might be that what OP says is true, that it was all ok until new partner came on the scene in a more permanent way. Then ex didn't like it & stopped contact.

I think if this did happen & lets not be naive, it does happen, it's unforgivable & resident parent will likely pay the price when they're old enough to see what is happening.

I am sorry but I am not just "anyone". I am the parent of these children. Children have a right to refuse contact or refuse the demands of a parent, however this refusal must be reasonable. A child resisting contact to a parent must be reasonably justified.

A child may want to have ice cream for breakfast every morning, however it is not reasonable to expect a parent to accommodate such a wish.

It is one thing to make a child feel heard but wholly inappropriate empowerment to abdicate parental responsibility and grant carte blanche to every wish.

Suppose a child refuses to go to school? Whilst it is not helpful to force the child to go, it is equally unhelpful to concede to such demands simply because the child wishes so. The court like any parent is expected to act in the best interest of a child.

It is in the best interest of a child as recognised by the Children's Act to have a relationship with both parents, as long as neither parents pose a safeguarding concern.

In cases of parental alienation we have to thread even more carefully, as a child's expressed wishes may not be entirely their own. The court is expected to "ascertain" a child's wishes and feelings, and so when a child is alienated, it is difficult to distinguish their genuine wishes and feelings from those that they have adopted as a result of a alientation.